Some subterfuge x freakshow F1 males show intersex traits. I’ve got no issues with them. I actually see logic in them producing females that are less likely to express male hermaphrodites…
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Moneciois hemp strains are supposedly XX, but I also think its possible for intersexed plants to be XY. I have Blue Bonnet seed I produced from intersexed males I have yet to grow out (all the males were intersex). Oregon CBD claims the ~1/4000 fully phenotypic males that come out of feminized seed produce progeny that are 50:50 m:f, of which I am skeptical. If so, I would still need proof the male wasn’t the result of pollen contamination.
The only way to know is make seed and grow them.
I see it a lot across a range of genetics, photo and auto, fem and reg.
This has some info that is out of date or unresolved, but especially table 4.1 is an interesting way to think about sex expression in Cannabis, even if it isn’t literally correct. I think it represents the reality of a multi-gene, nonmendilian effect in Cannabis sex expression.
https://www.hempbasics.com/hhusb/hh4bot.htm#HH45
@lefthandseeds there are chemicals to reverse males to female. I can’t remember at the moment.
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I’ve read that paper a few times, and I find it a little confusing. But I guess it’s a review of ways to try and classify hemp to make breeding for sex traits more digestible.
Eg.
K. Hirata concluded that (x) has a higher male tendency than (X), and that (y) has a higher female tendency than (Y). The (X) has a net female tendency, and (Y) has a net male tendency. The male tendency in (Y) overbalances the female tendency in (X) so that a heterogeneous (XY) male is normally male, and a (XX) plant is normally female. Female hemp genes are (XX), (XXX), and (XXXX). The (XXXY) and (XXY) individuals are female or female intersexes. The males are (XY), (XYY), and (XXYY).
S. Hennick, et al., and others assert that this classification is impractical for purposes of breeding hemp
None of those things are “real” in the sense that hemp only has 2 sex-linked chromosomes. I’ve seen some newer articles from either 2019 or 2020 that seem to think that hemp sex expressions can be explained by a combination of sex-linked chromosomes and hormones. That makes the most sense to me – but I understand the need for an accurate classification method to help explain what happens when you breed with them. If that’s even possible… which given the number of revisions to their models shown in that paper makes me think it might not be.
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Yes. I like the idea to look at it as XY sex determination with one to a few additive factors causing different degrees of intersexuality. Likely affecting hormone production or sensitivity, anywhere along any signaling pathways involved in sex expression. At least some of the genes causing intersexuality are on autosomes and aren’t sex linked. And as skeptical as I have been of it, DJ Short may be correct to pick female leaning, intersex males if their all of their progeny produce extra-female leaning hormone profiles.
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Here’s mine
Orange = pistils
Red = nanners
Purple = seeds
I’m a noob when it comes to genetics but from what I read, seeds produced from such a plant would be m/f. Or something something could be 25%females, 50% YY non viable and 25% male(?), its all very confusing to me, I’m still recovering from my last adventure into genetics talk, nose bleed and all
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I was reading DJ Short’s book “Cultivating Exceptional Cannabis” a week back, he referred to them as backward hermaphrodites (males then females).
He said they were usually sterile but when they were not, they could almost guarantee no regular herms in the progeny and also a higher F:M ratio.
He also, said fertile ones were quite rare.
Cheers
G
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I plan to put all these theories to the test.
The “male” pictured above is still alive, I’m waiting for seeds to ripen and I’ll grow some at least until they show sex, should clear a few things up haha
Also crossed him to a plant I had outdoors I didn’t care about - seeds are almost ripe. I’ll grow a few of those too.
I’ll be looking at sex ratios, herm tendencies, and fertility.
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You have several great opportunities to test theories!!
Good hunting!
G
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I love OG! I’ve searched for ages via Google gor info on this, I should have known to come straight here.
I currently have a male that is showing the some pistils(?) I can’t seem to see where they’re coming from exactly, I don’t clearly see calyxs.
This is a Soul Mate f2, it’s been flowering for around 3 weeks now, clearly showing male flowers all over the place, and tgen today I’ve looked in on it and looks to have some pistils forming too.
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Definitely intersex stuff happening there.
BOG said if it was male first and then changed to female it was a ‘backwards hermaphrodite’. Usually sterile but if not, it could be bred into a hermaphrodite line changing the intersex ratios.
TL:DR
makes more girls than boys. (sort of…)
Cheers
G
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I’m trying to find the discussion between Tom Hill and Charlie from peyote purple fame.
They went in details about such “males”.
From memory they increase the females ratios ie peyote purple was first launched as a feminized line but around 5% “males” popped up. Then re-released as regular but 90-95% females.
BOG used such males on occasion, I read a couple times him saying 70% females from his seeds was normal.
When I find the thread I’m looking for I’ll edit here with correct info.
All the terms are mixed in my head right now lol
Translocation, autosomal, y, xx males 
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From Tom
They’re not males ime, but highly staminate intersex females. Cannabis plants (sex) are controlled first by the XY system, but secondly (expression) by (often environmentally triggered) modifying factors located on autosomes, or pseudoautosomal regions.
A female plant with a noted absence of masculine type modifiers can be said to be strongly female. When selfed her progeny will contain very few if any intersex individuals. The opposite type of plant (a female with a noted abundance of masculine type modifiers) -though they may be masked in the parent- will occasionally give rise upon recombination to what you’re referring to in this thread. But they’re not really males.
All plants born from gynoecious selections (born from female reversals) are females in regards to their sex chromosomes but express as females and intersex females of varying degrees (varying all the way to “it damn sure looks like a male to me”) due to the presence/absence/activation of modifying factors.
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This phenomenon is not exclusive to plants born of gynoecious selections, rather it is simply more readily apparent there than with male/female selections where it is masked by the expectation of seeing males in the population. …
…It would be wonderfully amusing to me if it turns out that as we do learn more, that some breeders choosing to poddy-mouth female lines were actually using them unbeknownst to them, utilizing highly staminate intersex females as pollen donors. It is possible imo, and I would lmao. -T
From hammerhead
I spoke to him(charlie) about that. He said he released the seeds as regular knowing they where
s1 seeds. He did that because of these highly staminate intersex females we are getting…
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@Mithridate & @Gpaw
Thanks for extra info, I’m slightly at a loss what to do with this one, thus is the only male from 9 beans, I might have to try poppingsome more seeds to look for another male…
I’d intended on making f3s from this grow, and I probably still will, but i have a feeling if I wanted to share these with the community it would put a lot of people off lol, until I could perhapsgrow out the resulting f3s.
Regardless, I I interested to see if the pillen from this will be viable, and what seeds it will produce.
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There’s a good chance they’ll be fine. You’d be surprised how many lines show these pistillate males…
Most people just cull males on sight, they never know if it’s really a male. Then those who keep males around, do so just long enough to collect pollen then kill them.
I’ll be honest and say 3rd week of flower seems early to throw pistils, I don’t know… those I’ve seen threw pistils much later 5+ weeks…
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Thats a fair point, I don’t think many people at all will ahev even grown a male plant, let alone flowered and observed it.
I checked my dates and it’s nearly 4 weeks flowering…thats still relatively quick though I believe.
I think ill definitely keep this one around to see if the pollen is at kesst viable, then it’s a round of solo cups and 12/12 from seed just to see what the f3s will be like.
I’m also in process of attempting to make some s1s from the Soul Mate f2s. So hopefully I’ll at least have those.
*This isn’t the plant I’m attempting to make the fem pollen on just for the record lol.
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If you can test f3s, that would be the smartest path I think.
It’s all about gene recombination. I’ve read that sour diesel was a tough one to self due to it showing lots of those pistillate males… here
From Tom
Actually and perhaps ironically, the quickest way out of the situation is through (forced) selfings coupled with progeny testing.
In post #18 Charlie tells of Wesos encountering populations of “mostly males” via selfing. Sour D and others have shown this as well. These are not males, but a situation where male modifiers have recombined in such a way that they are heavily expressed in the population. The way out is to keep looking, and find a parental plant/s in the population that do not bring this result so commonly upon selfing, exactly as Charlie has done.
If you want to read more, these 2 threads are my go to
Fascinating stuff
Ps be careful, before long you could be actually breeding plants 
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