Jacks 321 Hydro discussion, questions, tips, etc

Indoor Growing Hydroponics
#41

I used the cheap yellow pH pen off of amazon ($9) side by side with a Blu-Lab meter with brand new probe at my old grow. We had to re-calibrate the Blu-Lab 2 times before the “cheap” pen needed an adjustment, and this was 40 days of constant use. It really just comes down to proper storage of the pen. As long as it stays in the solution it maintained an accurate reading. And to get calibration solutions, they are cheap as hell for the powder and distilled water method. Or just get a set of premixed bottles for sub $10.

-GH

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#42

Explain more please?

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#43

I grow with mega crop (v2) and people claim that has too much N (mc has too much N in general is what I hear). In flower I don’t go past 4.5 which is around 98 ppm per gal of N. Jacks 321 (low dose) is around 118 N. The strongest dose of jacks is 142 N compared to the 6 gram, strongest, dose of mc at 131 N ppm per gallon.
So do any of you jacks 321 users run into leafier, branchier, flowering plants running jacks?

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#44

Yes, could there be a little more explanation about pH up and down being toxic? I’m new to growing but haven’t read or heard that before. Ive only heard that you dont want to mix up and down together, like if you go too far one way and got to go back the other direction…I guess that could.be a hint at the toxicity, still…

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#45

That was the first time Ive heard that too, and Im pretty sure its nothing to worry about… Im not sure where that comes from, because when used correctly, they are not toxic. In fact, the elements in most PH up and down are nutrients that the plants need and use.

ANY single element used as a nutrient can be toxic if too much is used. On the other hand, too little also kills the plant.

In hydroponics, you dont have a choice. You must adjust the PH of the nutes or your plants dont ddo well. Soil can be more forgiving and/or you can use other additions to the soil to control PH. BUT - those other additions are doing the same thing, so I dont see the difference.

You have to control PH. People have been using PH UP and DOWN for decades with no issues. I wouldnt worry if I was you :slight_smile:

I think thats also mostly an old wives tale. If you go WAY to far one way, then WAY to far back, that might be an issue. Again, just use them correctly and dont worry. If you go a little too far, its fine to add a little of the opposite and correct the PH. Thats much better than leaving it out of bounds.

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#46

Gotcha! That’s pretty much what I’m doing. A little goes a long way and with plants, I’m learning!

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#47

Hey Michi,

Better late than never I suppose. We use Sunshine Mix #4 and just feed straight jacks at a PH of 6.0. Never had any issues with chlorosis so I would assume the soil just buffers the mix on contact. We have had a few issues with slight chlorotic growth on the new growth areas, but that was due to a drop in temp/reduction in transpiration rate during season change.

Our current paramaters:
Sunshine Mix 4
Geopot 7 gallon bags as final stage
Jacks 3-2-1, 3-1-4 NPK
240W 4000k LM301B LED lights for each 5x5 space
Light intensity at canopy: PAR of 350-400 (any higher and plants stress a bit and become hard to clone)
76-80 degrees F
65% humidity

We will start to amend the soils with dolomite lime. Sometimes the nitrogen in the Jacks mix is a bit too high, so we want to have that buffer of calcium during times where we need to drop N to low levels.

The stress/chlorosis started when temperatures were hitting the 65 degree range. We had an abnormally cold November here in Maine and it dropped down to 8 degrees F at night for a week. An oil heater solved that issue.

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#48

GH PH Down MSDS

Phosphoric and Citric Acid (acids)

GH PH Up MSDS

Potassium Carbonate (base)

When Combined

If we combine Potassium Carbonate (base) and Potassium Phosphate (acid) they neutralize eachother to form potassium dihydrogen phosphate, water and carbon dioxide

K2CO3 + 2H3PO4 → 2KH2PO4 + H2O + CO

That potassium dihydrogen phosphate is just a soluble salt that is broken down into Potassium and Phosphorus and used by the plant. So basically nothing bad happens if your combine them into the same res.

By Themselves

pH is just a measure of hydrogen activity in a solution. When you dissolve a solid acid into solution, it reacts with the water for form a conjugate base. That is all that is going on in those pH up and down bottles. Those acids or bases are poured into you res and are diluted and/or neutralized by the other solutes present. The effect it will have on your root zone is negligible.

Also, just use Vinegar for pH down and Sodium Hydroxide for pH up. Don’t be swayed by broscience and dont waste your money on pre-bottled acids and bases.

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#49

Have you mixed your own with battery acid before?
Is vinegar going to keep the ph stable or does it evaporate out.

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#50

If you want an organic pH down, I suggest citric acid. It is cheap and readily available. I add 10 grams to a liter of distilled water and use that as a pH down.

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#51

Ahem… citric acid for pH up?
I would have thought it better used as a pH down…

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#52

I would use citric acid in hydroponics. Vinegar is fine for soil, but it will evaporate in a hydro res.

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#53

Thanks! That’s exactly the info I was looking for about this! And the term, “broscience” had me ROLLING!

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#54

Thanks for catching that. I’ll edit my post. :+1::seedling:

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#55

Does the citric acid work better than phosphoric acid to stabilize the res ph?

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#56

In my experience, which PH products, and which nutes will work best depends - to a very large degree - on where you live and what your water and environment is like.

I fought PH issues and wild PH swings for years until I discovered that ANY organics added to my water caused wild PH swings on the UP side. I live in the Pacific North West where it rains a LOT. I also happen to live in an honest to god rain forest, The soil, air and water are filled with bacteria, mold, mildew, algae, etc etc. Even RO filtration doesnt get rid of it all.

Those bugs just LOVE organics in nutes. They cause wild PH increases as they eat. So, anything vaguely organic is a big NO for me, so citric acid, vinegar, etc are on my banned list.

I also cant use any nutes with any organics in them. That rules out Mega Crop, Fox Farm, Advanced Nutes PH Perfect, etc. Now that I have switched to Jacks 321 hydro, I have a rock solid stable rez as far as PH.

I use battery acid as PH DOWN. I use it because it works best, last longest, and provides micro nutes in the form of sulfur - its sulfuric acid. I forget what Im using for PH UP, I think its Potasium hydroxide, but I use so little the last gallon jug I mixed up is a couple of years old.

On top of all that organic crap, I have another issue with my water. It contains carbonates that want to give it a natural PH in the 6.7 range. The chemistry has to do with dissolved C02. Dissolved C02 = carbonic acid - which lowers PH. My water naturally has a fair amount of C02 in it when it comes out of the tap. That in combination with the carbonates, makes my water really really really want to be at 6.7. After coming out of the tap, when the water gets aerated, that C02 leaves the solution, which makes the water less acidic = higher PH. When I add PH down, the solution will gradually climb back UP in PH over time even with NO nutes or plants in the system.

So, I have TWO vectors that both raise the PH of my water. Bacteria eating organics, and the natural C02/carbonate cycle in my water. I have well water by the way.

I am of the belief that many of the problems other people have in hydro are similar to mine, and based on the same underlying issues - water with a hi natural carbon dioxide/carbonate content, and using organic nutes and amendments.

Most folks just dont realize whats going on and blame something else for the PH swings - like incorrect EC, over/under feeding etc, too much N or P or K, etc etc etc, when if fact its something hidden in the water and/or nutes.

By the way - sulfuric acid (regular car battery acid) is the most common PH Down used in the world. Virtually ALL large commercial growers use it every where. The main reason Im sure is its the cheapest by far, but it is also safe and it just works.

I spent $8 on a small container at my local auto parts store three years ago and still have 1/3 of it left, plus a 1/2 gallon of the diluted stuff I mixed up.There is nothing wrong with using it in our grows.

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#57

No - plus twenty chars… see above.

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#58

Broscience is a good one! Ive been calling it “stoner science” :wink: Anyone who can make a video is an instant expert :smiley:

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#59

Thank you for the information. I was trying to get the other guy to explain so he could see he was kind of wrong. I’ve used citric and ph down, but the citric doesn’t last long. I used citric for outdoor organics. And I won’t for hydro because it doesn’t last.

I switched to masterblend in my dwc and the ph swings are tough with this high carbonate water I have also. I’d like to spend less on ph down.

What’s your dilution for the battery acid? Do you use tap water or RO when making the diluted solution.

Thanks

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#60

I buy the battery acid at an auto parts store, so this is based on that initial concentration of acid. I add 1 cup of acid to one gallon of water. I just use tap. RO for me is too much trouble but it wont hurt to use it.

The exact ratio isnt at all critical. You can adjust up/down as needed if its too weak or too strong for you. I will likely dilute mine more next time, so my mix isnt as strong. Having it too strong makes it easier to over shoot when adding to the rez.

One key factor - nevernevernevernever NEVER add water to acid. ALWAYS poor the acid into the water. So, fill up your jug 3/4 or so with water, THEN poor in the acid …slooooowly.

Mixing acid and water is a very exothermic reaction. If you add water to the acid, it may flash boil into steam. If that happens, it could blast acid all over the place - including your eyes.

For sure wear eye protection and rubber gloves are a good idea. Battery acid in this concentration wont hurt your skin as long as its washed off reasonably soon. You dont even have to run to the wash station unless it gets in your eyes.

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