Kangen Machine and Cannabis

Advanced Techniques
1

Hi all!

Someone is trying to sell Kangen machines to cannabis growers. They are promoting it can help with pests and disease. I’m curious both if anyone has tried these in Cannabis, or if anyone can explain to me how they work?

I haven’t had a chance to go through all this yet, but this is some of the information I was presented with:

  • Hydrogen-rich water alleviates the toxicities of different stresses to mycelial growth in Hypsizygus marmoreus

Application of Electrolyzed Water in Agriculture | SpringerLink

  • Roles of hydrogen gas in plants: a review
  • In Vitro Fungicidal Activity of Acidic Electrolyzed Oxidizing Water
  • Method for remediating mold and mildew using acidic electrolyzed water
  • Postharvest management of gray mold and brown rot on surfaces of peaches and grapes using electrolyzed oxidizing water
  • Check out this Scientific Research Doc on using Electrolyzed Water in Agriculture.
  • Strong Acid Water by Molecular Hydrogen Institute
  • This 16-minute video gives you a scientific explanation of the 2.5 strong acidic water (technical term: 2.5 Hypochlorous Acid)

Science

These results indicate a potential use of AEW as a seed surface disinfectant or contact bactericide.

https://cdnsciencepub.com/doi/abs/10.1139/w06-048

o(EO) water quickly kills a variety of fungi and shows promise as a broad-spectrum contact fungicide for control of foliar diseases of greenhouse-grown ornamentals.

Evaluation of acidic electrolyzed water for phytotoxic symptoms on foliage and flowers of bedding plants - ScienceDirect

The electrolyzed water technology is known for decades, but its application in agriculture is rather new. Combining the technology with other suitable methods for better efficiency is another possibility for future improvement in results as well as expanding the range of application. Some of these include but are not limited to ozonated and microbubbled water as well as a variety of other solutions currently in use. There is a great chance for the years to come for us to hear more news about electrolyzed water success in agriculture sector as an environmental and economical friendly sanitizer intervention for multiple uses.

Google Scholar

Control of Colletotrichum fructicola on strawberry with a foliar spray of neutral electrolyzed water through an overhead irrigation system

Google Scholar

https://escholarship.org/content/qt1730p498/qt1730p498.pdf

https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/fstr/11/2/11_2_135/_article/-char/ja/

Google Scholar

Enagic Rice farm video

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dF6EwlH1tIM

https://getd.libs.uga.edu/pdfs/qi_hang_201512_ms.pdf

https://mdpi-res.com/d_attachment/microorganisms/microorganisms-09-00136/article_deploy/microorganisms-09-00136-v2.pdf

Agriculture | Free Full-Text | Effects of Treatment with Electrolyzed Oxidizing Water on Postharvest Diseases of Avocado | HTML

Electrolyzed Water in Agriculture – Articles & patents

A promising area for the application of electrolyzed water is agriculture. Although the whole concept is relatively new, it has already been clearly shown that electrolyzed water can be suitable for use in multiple pre- and post-harvest applications. Plant irrigation using electrolyzed water has been successful for mitigation of pathogens as well as showing antibacterial effects against pathogens. Hence, electrolyzed water has the capability to be used as an agent for the mitigation of plant disease as well. Several plant diseases have been mitigated successfully so far using electrolyzed water. Furthermore, the technology fits well to be used for seed germination, product improvement, and yield increase too. Another relatively new application for electrolyzed water is in the production of flowers and foliage. There is still need for further evaluation of electrolyzed water for this purpose as well as testing it on more types of flower, but so far the technology has been useful as tested. The electrolyzed water technology is known for decades, but its application in agriculture is rather new. Combining the technology with other suitable methods for better efficiency is another possibility for future improvement in results as well as expanding the range of application. Some of these include but are not limited to ozonated and microbubbled water as well as a variety of other solutions currently in use. There is a great chance for the years to come for us to hear more news about electrolyzed water success in agriculture sector as an environmental and economical friendly sanitizer intervention for multiple uses.

https://www.springerprofessional.de/en/electrolyzed-water-in-food-fundamentals-and-applications/16887190

 
 
 
Appreciate any input! :v:

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Interesting, I’ll have to read up on this. :thinking:

Good post

Cheers
G

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Don’t have any personal experience. Also super interested. Been hearing people talk about them. If I had spare money around I might spring for one.
Thanks for starting this thread🙏🏼

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@Gpaw Be interested in what yourself or anyone else has to say. They people are really pushing to get these in the cannabis industry.

@ElMasSabroso I’m really ot sold yet. I want to know how it works, if it affects the chemical structure of the water at all, and if it is cost efficient.

@Northern_Loki Always appreciate your input on stuff like this. I’d enjoy to hear your thoughts if you wanted to offer them up. :pray:

:v:

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Found this paper which I think does a pretty good job of explaining the process:

https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/project-ideas/Chem_p087/chemistry/salt-bridge-how-electricity-changes-ph

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I did a quick ‘look around’ last night. The science is solid but watch out for the companies selling these products.
I found two multi-level marketing companies (similar to Amway) selling water ionizers, Kangen being one of them.
“The reason that Kangen is the most expensive is that half the cost is being paid in commissions” (not my words).

Good on ya digging up the science references @PlantShepherd :+1:, most of the info I found was hype and spin. :grin:

I’d cast around a little and find a ‘normal company’ manufacturing the equipment. It is an interesting bit of science and certainly applicable to our interests.

Cheers
G

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Looking at this, I’m not convinced. Meaning, I’m not convinced that this is much more than creating a market for something that can be handled in other ways. That doesn’t mean it won’t work. It does mean that you could probably achieve the same results in a different way.

They are, in essence, creating a solute that has low PH + hypochlorite.

While trying to figure out what is Acidic Electrolyzed Oxidizing Water, here’s a table [1]:

Electrolyzed water type Common names Abbreviation pH ORP (mV) Chlorine content (mg/L) References
Acid electrolyzed water Acidic electrolyzed water, Electrolyzed oxidized water, strongly acidic electrolyzed water, electrolyzed strong acid aqueous solution AEW, EO,EOW, SAEW, ESAAS, StAEW 2–3 >1000 20–60 [23], [34], [87]
Slightly acidic electrolyzed water Slightly acidic electrolyzed water SlAEW 5.0–6.5 >900 10–30 [35], [48], [87]
Alkaline electrolyzed water Alkaline electrolyzed water, Basic electrolyzed water, Electrolyzed reduced AlEW, BEW, ER 10.0–11.5 − 795 to − 900 NA [34], [18]
Neutral electrolyzed water Neutral electrolyzed water NEW 7–8 750 50 [14], [88], [67, 40]

And, a schematic representation of the process:

image
image1499×1008 67.3 KB

From the above reference, you’ll note a couple of products via the electrolysis of a H20 + NaCl solution. First is the creation of HOCl. Second is HCl. Third is NaOH.

HOCl is hypochlorous acid (anode side).
HCl is hydrochloric acid (anode side).
NaOH is Sodium hydroxide (cathode side).

From a general chemistry perspective. if you were to pump chlorine gas into water you’d obtain a stoichiometric balance of the first two components: HOCl and HCl. HOCl in solution will partially disassociate into hypochlorite (OCL-) which are quite reactive. For instance, pump in some ammonia and you’ll obtain an in-solute reaction creating … monochloramine. Further, HOCl can also react with organic amines to form N-chloroamines.

This reactivity of the various products is why the ORP is so high and also, along with subproducts, why it shows strong disinfection properties.

Household bleach. What is it? NaOCl. Sodium hypochlorite. Notice the hypochlorite.

From all of this, perhaps the interesting piece is the PH. I have to understand this a bit more. Since there is no membrane barrier, the solution overall will have some balance of NaOH + OCL product which tends to be more basic rather than acidic. Forcing the solution to go acidic will cause the release of the chlorine as a gas … which you’d want avoid. There will still be chlorine gas dissolved but as the solution becomes more acidic, more of it is evolved as a gas.

Question I’m wondering about, will there be a difference between the two for the amount of chlorine gas produced. It’s interesting that the above diagram does not show the production of CL2 which I don’t really understand. Here is another diagram, electrolysis of an NaCl solution, that does show the evolution of CL2 as opposed to oxygen as shown in the first diagram.

image

I’d need to study this more to understand the nuances of this type of electrolysis. But, in the end, is there a significant benefit being obtained here that is not obtained in a different way? Amendment with bleach (NaOCL), for instance? Or perhaps, pool shock (CaOCL)?

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How would this be different than colloidal silver generator using a weak acid and/or base?

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You are freaking awesome Loki! Thank you so much for your post! I was thinking the same thing about is it necessary? I feel like it is a total gimmick. They are claiming it can help with PM, pests, pathogens, etc.

However, I’m also one of those old turds that doesn’t like change. So I thought I would throw it out there to see if this really is a great technology for cannabis growing.

I need to run, but will post more on this later! Again, thank you everyone for your responses! :v:

Outta likes again. :roll_eyes:

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I had never heard of those before. The prices are all over the place. Is it just that it’s making water that you can’t purchase that same water somewhere else? No wonder I got a C in Chemistry in college. And that took me a couple of semesters to get it. ha.

Also, is it on demand like running water through and reverse Osmosis filter? Does the water hold the same characteristics once it’s been through the machine, without reverting back to it’s original state? Sorry, Chemistry is still sort of French to me.

Thanks for the post @PlantShepherd. I had never heard of that machine before. Interesting stuff. peace

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Can you share the price range you saw please?

I’ve also heard they need to be recharged at some point and it is quite expensive.
Always cautious of network marketing companies.
I have a hunch there is something to water structuring though and I want to experiment with it.
Thanks everyone✌🏽

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I just googled Kangen Machine and clicked on the shopping tag. The range of prices was around $500 to $8,500. But, I was just glancing through. The cheaper ones may not be the full blown machine.

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So I know someone that is going to demo one of the machines. They asked if I wanted to come check it out when they got it. I might even go for the training on it. Again, I feel like an old turd cause I keep questioning both it’s efficacy and necessity. It would be pretty amazing if it lives up to the claims. :v:

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Even if it lives up to the claims, it also needs to compete with other products on its price point. :wink: Not sure how realistic that is, when that’s in the thousands.

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100%!! This is going to be for a fairly large commercial operation vs a home grow.

These were also sent. I watched about 2 minutes of the last video (the only one not age protected) and had to turn it off.

Some helpful videos regarding kangen water in cannabis

https://youtu.be/_DcxivW-Z3A https://youtu.be/_DcxivW-Z3A

https://youtu.be/ugsh6ahyzFo https://youtu.be/ugsh6ahyzFo

https://youtu.be/eGv_IXyRaSs https://youtu.be/eGv_IXyRaSs

https://youtu.be/fGFQeMD44z0 https://youtu.be/fGFQeMD44z0

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Lol… yep. About the part where she started explaining how their water was better because it’s been molecularly restructured to have smaller molecules that can penetrate your skin faster. I’m not a scientist, but I also play one on YouTube, and I’m not sure that makes a damn bit of sense. A water molecule is a water molecule…

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For those who are looking to try this mechanism, consider some cheap alternatives first:

E.g.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/255077688681
https://www.ebay.com/itm/384391738356
https://www.ebay.com/itm/124814367944

There is a whole bunch of varients on Ebay by searching under hypochlorous acid generator

Or, how about DIY:

As far as Kangen, here’s a Youtube presentation that is more focused towards the marketing for consumption of the product though it does provide some insight into the MLM schemes:

Sounds fun to experiment with though keep in mind the are essentially creating a bleach solution and then, in some instances, attaching a fancy sounding name. Household bleach (which has a much higher concentration of hypochlorite) is relatively inexpensive. For increased stability, CaOCl, that can be found in purity with some of the cheaper pool shock formulations.

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Don’t a bunch of hydro growers use pool shock for keeping a sterile res? I’m strictly a dirt guy, but I feel like this isn’t the first time I’ve seen pool shock come up in the forums as a cheap alternative to some stoner-taxed product?

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Yes, I believe some do, in a dilute concentration. Though, it should be Pool Shock that’s pure CaOCl (usually it’s the cheaper stuff). The advantage with pool shock (over household chlorine bleach) is that it’s tends to be more stable than NaOCl and is easily obtained dry as a powder or a puck. You also have calcium ions as opposed to sodium.

Not sure of the target ORP. I’d assume overdoing it would also have some negative consequences.

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I too have magic water for sale. $50/gallon. Plus shipping. It’s like what these guys sell but better.

Absolutely laden with…uh…energy. Balancing energy. Chakras, too.

Very special water. Some of the best, tremendously wet. All sorts of ions.

Combine with a focusing crystal (it only LOOKS like a rock I found outside) and save a bundle.

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