Landraces.. what matters?

[romanoweed]

Continuing the discussion from Nuristanica broad leaf drug origin?:

the more interesitng question for me is: are landraces that we loved inbreed, outrcossed? how much?
it would help us to determine , how to preserve a Strain…
I say that, because, there are various places on earth with totally different highs, with Legendary highs. Say Afghani, Thai, Columbian,,
wich leads my Thinkingpath to not be really that fascianted by Origin or Anchestry, cause the 3 Places i named are so mega random, and pollenanalysis suggests very different anchestrys say for Thai, and Columbian. Still bouth are superb… Still each of them are legendary Strains.

My thinkingpath, is thinking: what matters are other things… amount of selective pressure, terroir influence on the selection that humans make, and population size.

[romanoweed]

In other words did anyone find a superior Anchestry reflecting in superior Landraces ?

Also: can a Trait selected out ever reemerge?
(they say Strains with HEmp anchestry are all low in Cannabinoids, because it was once breed out, or lost, and therefore stays like that)

[romanoweed]

Look:
Thai shows less Variation than Indian Samples:

Thai Samples (you see that these are Thaisamples in the Header Column)

Indian Samples

[Dirt_Wizard]

No Phylos plz

[Roms]

@Dirt_Wizard

I think these recent genomics papers would be of interest, they analyzed fossil pollens and seed/achene samples found in archaeological sites with some good data inferences about cultivated vs wild using crop pollens etc. Very interesting and pointing to Yunnan as the source of the hops/cannabis divergence but perhaps this area of Nuristan and its neighbors as the source of cannabis sativa:

Hi bro, thank you very much for inputs indeed very nice study but also so incomplete I mean no datas about South East Asians, Oceanians and Polynesians! All about NLD ancestor understanding far of those actual great studies. And of course also no datas about BLD ancestor and its understanding transformation. The Yunnan is imho just posterior but again need different objective approach to understand the evolution, science can demonstrate anything and everything, it’s all a matter of interpretation in facts!

[LonelyOC]

I would like to add that it’s a lot more probable that a cannabis plant for fiber was what our ancestors first discovered. Cloths > Getting high.

Also phylos is pure bullshit! They don’t know anything about any of the cultivars they have processed. At least not what they show. They might have better data that they keep for themselfs.

Edit: Much of the phylos data seems to be completly random.

Pz

[romanoweed]

for me not random, it absolutely matches with all the Ideas i had. It matches that some Thais , not all, but quiet a few have Hemp in Anchestry, but no Skunk (Again, these are Clouds and not necessarly Skunk, Hemp) .

Thats what i thought before Phylos, that the fatter Chocolate Thai Area Weed was not Afghani x Thai, but regional Hemp x Thai…

Also, the amount of Variation matches totally with where the trippyest Weed came from: SE Asia, Mexico, And Congo.. Go figure… The only places where i find a low variation reading, is Nicaragua Sample (thats mexico) , and various SE asian Samples… and slightly lower in Zambian Samples Perfect match…

Further, i dont know where you find randomness, but atleast i have checked, and for me alot seems to look good, per example mltiple Samples of the same " hybrid strain" show similar results, and some few results show diferent readings, thats what i expect, that from a given Hybrid strain that most are exactly that cultivar, and some are outcrosses but they kept the same name… Exactly how the knowledgable people teached us happend in US often…

so, i personally have found quiet astonishing matches, where i would have expexted nothing to match,.because its science, and scientific analysis read much more random than they are, and have to be interpreted right… but not this, for me it matches very well , atleast as far as i can tell.

[romanoweed]

no idea what wou wanna tell… so you are science expert that knows nobody can measure Plants genomics i guess.

Yeah, people thik phylos is stealing the Genomic data… but its not clear wether or not the data is real.

[romanoweed]

thats a very interesting point, but sadly your claim that it would misslabel it might be wrong:

HOWEVER, i coexidentally compared multiple Skunks, they like said had a very similar reading as i said, but one Samples Reading stood out totally. It showed almost pure landrace…

It did surprise me, so i read the description again, and it was looking almost intentionally, that the Name of the Sample was Skunk 1, but in the Description he has written very hidden that it could have been a random Seed, cuase he misslabeled it…

See:
Skunk 1 Dave Wattson, most samles show similar readings like this:

---

But one Sample Named Skunk 1 showed almost pure Landrace (name of Sample in the Header):

So i read Description of this weird Sample:

---

So, what i wanna tell, IF Phylos really just read the Samples, and draw in the Data as they think it should look like, then they have done a good job reading EVERY Description of how many Samples? 100000? , and they have decided to draw a Reading that most people would not expect… i mean they could gone the save way, as it says in description it could be anything, and could just drawn in a bit of skunk, but no, they almost drawn into a LAndrace Reading…

This example almost gave me some confidence the readings may be right. I almost guess that the guy who sent this sample tried to test em, and it looks like they atleast didnt mess up…

Phylos also states the name of a Company that does the Measurements (not they themselves, its an university that they named), it would be interesting to actually as them what they say to the alligations that the measurements are fake.

[romanoweed]

i think you need to reread the post… i said the weird Sample was tagged in the TITLE Skunk 1…

BUT in the description, man read exactly you were overflying lol, it says that it could theoretically be crosscontamination.

Let it settle for a while aswell, my first reaction was also, ooh phylos looks random… I was trying to evaluate wether they are random or not,
but then i read the desscription and it says : IT COULD BEEN A MIXED UP SEED FROM ALMOST ANYTHING…

And THE FECT that Phylosshows a almost pure Landrace Reading is astonishing… If they were drawing in the data, they would probably not read this one of 10000000s Descriptions so exact, and even if they read the description , they would have decide if they would go the save way, to atleast draw a bit more random reading not something so “special” like a Landrace…
So, i just can repeat, read it slower, and let it settle, it also took me a day to settle…

[romanoweed]

here i highlighted the Description of the Sample again:

i have problems understanding what he means exactly, does he mean it was Skunk x unrelated, or does he mean it could also be a troughout unrelated Seed…

[jessethestoner]

Isn’t a landrace population one that does not have human selections for preferable traits made and instead are selected due to natural selection of traits versus a domesticated population that is continually selected for domesticate traits?

So your list on the first post about columbian, thai and afghan varieties is about how much are domesticated regional varieties mixed with one another and wild landrace populations?

[romanoweed]

No, a Landrace, lets for simplicity say a good Thai, a good Columbian , a good Afghani all have gone trough human selctive pressure.
Atleast Realseedcompany is claiming that, and its also what i know generally about other Food, or ornamental Species. Many of them have undergone human selection.

There are Guys specualting that unselected Cannbis is very low in Cannbinoids, it has just a couple Percent Thc, and Cbd, like one two percent.

Then you say, the more Variable Readings on Phylos could be mixups with wild Species.

And that may be. So besides the Selected Landraces, in some regions there can be relatively wild Crops coexisting… They sometimes escape. It does only happen in certain regions like India, or in Russia, in Vietnam aswell. Sometimes they escape and coexist close to the Farmed Varieties.

So, yes, its of corse possible that the more Variant readings on phylos could be a mix of Wild x farmed Varieties…

And, i know that people tell you that Landraces show more variance. However, im a bit unshure if the guys who say this have limited experience. They may have never gotten one of the real strong selected Thais… Cause as you see also in thailand some samples show quiet a bit of Variance…

I recall somebody saying that Thaistick that he got was repetadly very high quality, without exeption…

I have to say its crazy that some more Inbreed Hybrids like Blueberry show alot variance on phylos… and Landraces show the least… But again, im a bit sceptical when people tell me that landraces ALL have lots of variance… Sometimes i just think that they dont get that hard hitting quality every time, and hence interpret it as “high variance” . But i pesonally have seldon smoked a Landrace and was unhappy, no matter what pheno i took, i always enjoyed it., They just dont really apprechiate Landrace (no offense) , same as i dont apprechiate hardhittng hybrids, Just my specualtion…

Last but not least, the Terroir puts its own selective pressure on the Plants aswell… yes… But the humans ASWELL.

[romanoweed]

Not shure if it was clear: Many Species Landraces are selected, with it i mean the Landraces… I mean the small Cherry Tomatoes they grew in Italy in the 70s, i dont mean the monoculture Crops…
Thats commonly accepted by Scientists.

Some exeptions do exist… like the Tropical Plant in your Profile , that we buy in Stores are wild tho…

[romanoweed]

just as example

wild Strawberry:

Various old Strawberry Landraces:

Overall Landraces are selected towards favorable traits, such as sweet taste, size, easy to store, sometimes slightly posienous substances are selected out, look, and so forth…

Same is true for Cannabis…
A Wild Landrace of Cannabis hence would have lot less Cannabinoids, less good Taste probably too…
Thats why we constantly have to select a Strain, and if we dont it becomes weak, and unfavorable Traits emerge more and more. You heard that probably too, right?
So it is relatively unlikely that Landraces are unselected… Man you read Robert Clarkes (wellknown Scientist) Books and he will tell you the same, Canabis Landraces are domesticates… are selected to a certain Degree.

While i apprechiate that you question what i say, i really do, i think its up to breeders to justify why they call landraces strongly variable , rather than i … i havent grown so much, so all i can is speculate about it. all i know that phylos low-variance matches with where the trippyest weed came from.

Another thing you probably missunderstood: Realseedcompany dislikes that people call Landraces Landraces, he thinks it is rassussy. hah, so he pleaded that we should call them Domesticates, wich basically means the same… so … the average scientist would probably not agree on that, i guess atleast… its basically a similar meaning, just without the race word in it…

[romanoweed]

Probably i have to clearify this too:
In my Oppinion the Terroir defines the type of Effect , and the Humans define if its Drug, or Industrial Cultivar. And to wich degree, i mean humans can select stronger or less strong thowards drug , or the various industrail traits

I dunno what else i can say,