Partial fish hydrolysate alternative?

Advanced Techniques
1

Alright, so I have a question about fish hydrolysate and even fish amino acids (from KNF), and that is basically about the “good” fats.

I remember watching some video (maybe with the famous Elaine Ingram if spelled right?) and I don’t believe it was the first time I heard it, that it was important to get cold pressed fish hydrolysate where they also did not remove the fish oils, or what I assume she is talking about, the Omega 3 fatty acids.

I believe she went on to say that these oils were very helpful for fungal development in soil?

So, what I am ultimately wondering is if it is possible and would make sense to have a sort of vegan options, where in conjunction with soy aminos, you added some vegan Omega 3s (usually sourced from algae I believe) or if it would be a bad idea to add straight Omega 3s to your soil (living organic by the way)?

2 Likes
2

Kelp is a vegan version of this. Not exactly but it does contain I have never tried what you are asking but if you do let us know what happens. I don’t think the plant will get what you need with a substitute. Kelp, used more than recommended can rob the plant of oxygen and then go to the roots and cause trouble. Don’t forget the pests that appear with algae. Use the Fish oil. It will be utilized by the plant and soil and you will ever know it.

3 Likes
3

I know in mycology that you want lower oil grains. Like, people use mixed bird seed, but they remove all the sunflower seeds because the amount of oil can slow or even stop mycelial development.

2 Likes
4

Straight up adding oil in to soil seems like a fools errand. What is the goal here? Why source soy aminos? Why shoot so hard to keep the soil vegan?

There are lots of ways to skin a cat, and lots of things can help create a balanced potting mix or soil, I think the question we need to ask is what is your goal and why are you trying to make this substitution? Is it an availability or a sustainability thing? If it’s sustainability I would steer you away from soy aminos probably. If you are looking for fats, take a look at some of the stuff with guys feeding their worms avocados(there are probably. I have more sustainable ways rather than avos for many regions, this just came to mind) Something like that build your soil good web much more than adding in a bunch of stuff that has been processed or extracted to that point.

The health of the soil food web is better if you feed it more complete foods. Animal products are an important part of sustainable agriculture, so it seems silly to go so far to make something “vegan” especially if it is a living soil it will never actually be vegan, as all sorts of living creatures make that happen.

Sorry if this sounds critical, but why is a very important question to ask and answer here before you get too deep down this rabbit hole. Nature has these processes in place, minimal intervention is the path of least resistance, and often the most successful.

6 Likes
5

Check out boogie brew’s website I believe they sell something like you speak of.

1 Like
6

Well I kind of explained/mentioned the why/purpose being a fuel for fungal development.

As for the vegan aspect, was never arguing that a living soil is vegan, but yeah, maybe more on a sustainability and ethical standpoint personally, don’t think that’s really necessary to get into. I do feel you on processed and extracted stuff in general.

@MidwestMover thanks, will look into that.

3 Likes
7

For fungal development, I would think starches/sugars would be more what you are after rather than fats. Alfalfa, neem, barley, straw, wood chips. All great for fungal development.

I think overall for sustainability purposes you would be best off with local, sustainably caught fermented fish, or fish scraps from a local monger. Next best choice as a sort of 1:1 fill for that slot would be to ferment some insects, maybe crickets or grasshoppers, bonus is it would be rich in chitin. Noma(and probably other places) have used this culinarily as a replacement for fish sauce. You could also use any of these things in your compost directly. Pretty sure any of these would be better than mono topped factory farmed soy that has been processed into aminos. Quinoa is another option, but also probably not good from a sustainability perspective unless you grow it or are in a producing region.

I guess the why I was asking before is why are you trying to replace the fish aminos? Is it because the fish aren’t available? Or looking for a homade alternative but afraid to ferment the fish? If you don’t want to get into it that’s cool, but I feel like if you get into the why a little more specifically you will be able to get more advice on the best solution that fits your situation.

1 Like
8

Also, if buying/messing with extracted fish oils or some kind of omega 3 product or something, be cautious, agriculturally or as fungal food not sure of how much of a difference this makes, but many of those types of oils oxidize very quickly and storage conditions mean a lot for keeping the quality up.

In the context of fish oil specifically, the oxidation causes there to be free radicals which I know can result in a net negative for a person to consume, I don’t know how or if that effects things in the soil.

1 Like
9

Yeah, I’ve reached out to a local fish market to get scraps but I would like to get blue back type fish if I was to and they didn’t have scraps of those.

People have had a lot of success with soy aminos, but they also use fish aminos as well.

I can try to find the video talking about the oils for fungal growth, but yeah there is something to that different than carbs/sugars.

I think some of the other stuff you mentioned is great like the chitin albeit different than what we’re talking about.

Actually, it looks like those are great for the fungal development. Here is the video I think I saw:

For me the vegan option is just a personal choice, not really trying to further add to the over fished seas however going for scraps if there is no other alternative might just have to be a happy medium.

I am aware of the oxidation by the way, I should probably pop what I have into the fridge.

2 Likes
10

Thanks for posting the video, was just able to watch it. Like you I also like to nerd out on all this soil science, it’s fucking fascinating. Please excuse the long winded response, I’m forever working on being more concise. Hope some of this maybe helps with the big picture a bit.

I hear what you are saying, but I think you are taking a small part from what she said, which I think is more about getting the whole of the good source(fish), rather than the importance of fish oil for fungal growth.

Also, yes everything she says in the video is about growing fungus, however it is also an extreme example of that because she is trying to pivot a bacterial dominant soil to one more with a more even fungi/bacteria balance. If you are growing indoors, more than likely it’s more about establishing healthy colonies, which should be far easier. You don’t need your inputs to be as fungal dominant because you are trying to build a balanced soil in a more controlled environment.

Another important distinction to make is that she is talking about making an aerated compost tea, and using the fish hydrolysate on her compost pile. This means all of this has been worked on by the microbes for some time before it gets dumped into your soil, but you are talking very small amounts of oil, distributed evenly and bound with the fish hydrolysate to all break down together.

From my experience, and others I have observed, if you have a living soil, the more complicated you make it and try to over engineer it, especially without a soil test, the harder it gets. One of the main advantages is that natural systems and microbes are doing the hard parts for you.

Without a soil test or a lot of experience with your specific soil and specific plants, tinkering with the minutia too much will get you more headaches than it will flowers. I like to nerd out too and sometimes it’s hard to resist the urge to tinker when you learn new things, but keep the big picture in mind.

In the video she also pleads for you to use your own compost as your humic acid source. Growing in containers as small as you are, it will be easier to knock the soil out of balance. If you are using concentrated or more industrial piecemeal type inputs, the harder it will be to restore. If you are using a quality vermicompost as your humid acid source, you are likely getting most of the things she is talking about already(including chitin and trace amounts of oils from the insects and whatever has been composted, and that can now probably replace your soy aminos, humic acid, and whatever oil type product you are looking for entirely, with just 1 input.

3 Likes
11

I am actually trying to make my own vermicompost, but I have to re do my worm bin as half of the bottom mesh has come off and it could use a few more inputs.