i had a buddy that got busted back in the day that got a lighter sentence due to documentation.
Right??
How many breeders these days can sell out a hy(pe?)-brid with just a few photos and zero descriptions of the chemo-types associated with the line and/or phenos.
I am all for the community adopting terms which can help novices or folks new to a breeder figure out what is more uniform or IBL and what is a true F1 hybrid with a couple of phenos. Personally, I would just love to see a list of lines in which are so well bred IBLs that the seed siblings are nearing identical. That would be a terrific resource for those restricted by space, time or plant count!
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I agree completely. My seed collection is has a column on the list titled âBreeding Materiel - Y/Nâ. If anything is too polyhybrid (subjective of course) or the lineage is in any question, that column receives a capital N.
Not that amazing lines donât appear out of mashed up or random work, but it seems like such a disservice to the plant and community for lineage to be muddied. Provenance is crucial not only to us weed nerds, but to future breeders and growers that deserve our information and data to save themselves time, money, and space.
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forget the breeder - seen some seeds go for $800.00 (fems)(10) and some clones go for $5,000 + itâs crazy. Got a pack for seeds for $60.00 - the original price was $250.00 If I remember right from InHouse strain Forbidden Fruit or Jelly (something) The only thing I noticed was the âplantâ structure" was better than the $ $80.00 or 100.00 pack of seeds.then again itâs the genetics !! But there are rare landrance/heirloom that are expensive
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We have all a little maniac-thing to segregate breeders. But back to the context, itâs interesting.
When i see just in strains lists of a catalog that the breeder doesnât pair his specimens, itâs the proof for me that the male is not really a dedicated selection. Then, that the pairing of the F1 is more inspirational than based on a true rational choice based on phenotypes. When a couple of strains in the catalog share the same male i donât care but when the whole catalog is built like this ⌠itâs repulsive for me.
On notations i strictly doesnât give a fck ^^ Itâs not an attempt i have, real pedigree with transparency is already a first big step i think.
I totally agree, but itâs the fault of customers. Iâm serious. They have demonized the âIBLâ term. It just mean âinbred lineâ but they take it like a pedant information or worse lol.
Itâs not that complicated in bonus : F1 = heteroris. Everything after is just the distance from the heterosis, that can be called IBL too ^^
Itâs totally arbitrary bro, there is no limit to the notation of the generation. I mean, strictly on the industrial matter. When you buy a fedora 17, itâs a F17. When you buy an Orion 33 itâs a F33 ⌠this ninth generation to be considered as âpureâ doesnât really work. Inbreeding is not a mechanical âpurificationâ of a line, just a reduced spectrum of selection. And you goal can be to explode the genome this way in generating genetic shock, instead stabilization. Itâs not so absolute.
No, âP1â is used as an intrinsic notation. Example :
A Black Widow female can be from the generation F3, but also to be the P1 of the Jack Herer F5 x Black Widow F3, giving a F1.
Then you can start an IBL during 10 generations strictly made with the initial F1 pairing ^^
Itâs a non sense, specially for the F1, but customers are more in comfort with it. If you give a âIBL2â they will say you have not the right to call it this way because not enough generations ^^ It just mean âinbredâ and its restrictive constraints like i said.
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Funnily enough, structure is one of the easier trait to fix 
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Whenever I see pricy packs with a snobby name, I automatically assume itâs a cookie cross.
Duchesse x royal throne or some bs
Cookie s1 x cookie f3 
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Very interesting discussion. Kudos and appreciation all!
My pet peeve as well.
I have no issue with pollen chucking as long as thereâs transparency.
Take a look at LouDod420âs Beans for St. Judeâs thread when you get a chance. He has carefully kept track of the lineage of his crosses, show pics of the parents and their variations and he doesnât even sell seeds.
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I shared my âown maniac biasâ mostly to express that we have all different angles of segregation. But you understood.
Itâs a good opportunity to say that Iâve nothing against pollen chunking too, if the intentions are real. And specifically if the background is considered as an asset to transmit. Canât vouch enough this kind of philosophy.
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Frank morton of wild garden seeds has a great article about this that shows how the vegetable world defines these terms.
Definitions and Consequences: Hybrids, GMOs, and Open-Pollinated Varieties
Whatâs the difference, and what does it matter?
Frank Morton
There is a persistent ignorance about these terms that clouds most conversations about them, as well as media presentations that refer to them in regard to important agricultural issues, like feeding the world.
- Hybridâan offspring of two plants (or animals) of different varieties (or breeds), species, or genera. Commercial F1 hybrids require some control or manipulation of the pollination process.
- GMO (Genetically Modified Organism)âorganisms containing genes from unrelated species that were artificially inserted by genetic engineering (GE) techniques. GMO plants can be hybrids or open pollinating.
- Open Pollinated Varietyâan openly breeding population of plants with more or less uniform traits, appearance, and adaptations, that produce progeny of like qualities.
Commercial F1 hybrids are the kind of hybrids for sale to commercial farmers, and this is what is specifically referred to in common discussions of the relative merits of âhybrids vs OPs.â Commercial F1 hybrids have a different breeding process than open-pollinated varieties, with a different intended outcome. In commercial hybrids, all of the breeding work actually goes into the parents of the intended F1 end product. These parent lines are rendered to a specific genetic uniformity by repeated cycles of family inbreeding and selection, until each member of the inbred line is nearly like a clone, its genetic variability eliminated in hope of creating only ideal F1 offspring, once it has been crossed with an equally rendered mating line. One of these inbred lines is the designated maternal line, on which the F1 commercial hybrid seed will set and grow. This maternal line is bred (or chemically manipulated) to lack viable pollen, creating a âmale-sterileâ recipient for pollination by the male or paternal line. Commercial F1 hybrid seed is intended to produce one crop of genetically uniform offspring. Seed from hybrids doesnât produce uniform âhybrid-likeâ offspring.
Hybrids, as a general term, are created in nature and in breeding projects whenever unlike kinds, varieties, or species successfully inter-mate. The hybrid itself (the F1 generation) is a âgenetic averageâ of the parents that created it, and they generally look that way. When the hybrids have offspring (the F2 generation), they donât resemble the hybrid as much as they represent a reassembly of traits from the original parents of the hybrid, including some traits that were previously invisible because they are genetically recessive. F2 generations provides a plant breeder with a first opportunity to see some of the varietal possibilities that lie in the future, following many generations of genetic sorting (called âsegregationâ) and selection by the breeder and the environment. At the end of 6 to 10 generations of breeding âlike kinds to like kinds,â varietal families of kinds become genetically stable, and will âbreed trueâ to the type. Each kind is now an open pollinated variety, with more or less genetic uniformity, depending upon the specifics of its selection.
This is where all open-pollinating varieties come fromânew, heirloom, commercial, organic. Except for rare mutations, all the diversity we see in our cornucopia has arisen from the commingling of an everevolving array of varieties under differentand changing conditions. OP varieties are uniform enough to be clearly recognizable, but contain enough genetic diversity to maintain vigorous growth and adaptability under changeable conditions. Conversely, inbred parent lines easily fail when conditions donât suit them, and hybrids do not adapt to changing conditions. Such are consequences of the difference in F1s vs OPs.
Printed in the 2012 Wild Garden Seed Catalog
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Nit to pick with this, that is not generally what GMO means as defined by any governing body or scientific organization. Thatâs a description of transgenic organisms, which are one type of genetic modification, but genetic engineering is not limited to inserting recombinant DNA, and even if it were, inserting DNA from a different organism of the same species equally amounts to genetic engineering.
An example of a GMO that has had no recombinant DNA inserted either from a related or unrelated organism is triticale. It is a hybrid of wheat and rye, and the first generation is sterile because theyâre monoploid. They are treated to induce polyploidy to make them fertile, and the F1 hybrid triticale are crossed to produce commercial triticale seed.
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Yeah, I feel you on the labeling issue. Itâs important to have consistency and clarity when it comes to naming strains and indicating parental lineage. NL x Haze definitely makes more sense than the other way around. As for the F labeling, I can see how it can be confusing when itâs used for pure landrace or heirloom varieties. Using P1, P2, or something else could definitely be a clearer way to indicate the generation. Itâs all about clear communication in the end. Thanks for bringing up these points!
Usually itâs ladies first,an example cpuld be white russian,if itâs ak47 x white widow that would be mislabled ,if you reverse it then you would call it white russian,the other way its russian white.
can I ask here if you breed f1 stock down to f2 will this in fact diminish potency levels through mere inbreeding?
I have no real understanding of how breeders work and how they do things but just from basic reading I can see that f1 hybrid forms, then selectively bred for f2 generation just simply breeds offspring into offspring,surely that must have some outcome on the overall potency of any subject suggested?
sorry if this is off topic slightly and unrelated in term but the mere influx of f2 stock is just inbred selections and how do breeders possibly refine selections breeding kids into kids.it just doesnât make sense to me.?
can someone pls explain this.
Without any human intervention, it can be considered.
But youâre mentionning one, as âyou breedâ, so yes itâs a possible leverage . But it can be extended to all generations, not only for the F1.
If you increase the âusefullâ vegetal mass without upgrading the potency of the chemotype, you mecanically lower the potential. Just an example.
You can make also a F2 way more potent than its F1 version, not planned initially for it. It all depend on your knowledge of the distant P1 and its leverages.
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The conventional wisdom with plant breeding is that F2s show a great deal of variation, rather than the consistency and depression of fitness associated with inbreeding. That is contingent on the F1s being true F1 hybrids, where two unrelated parent lines that have been inbred, P1/P2, are crossed in order to produce an F1 that is heterozygous at every locus.
In other words, if P1 is inbred with the allele âAâ at every locus, and P2 is inbred with allele âBâ at every locus, all their allele pairs are âAAâ and âBBâ respectively, and the F1 will have allele pairs âABâ at every locus. This means the F1 is extremely consistent, but not inbred, and that is why so many commercial crop varieties are F1 hybrids. But when you take those âABâ F1s and mate them, you end up with F2s that have a varying mix of âAAâ, âABâ, and âBBâ at each locus, and as a result they can be wildly different from each other and the parent F1s.
The problem is that the F1s for cannabis do not have anywhere near that level of consistency. Almost no F1s are produced by the cross of two inbred lines. Itâs much more common to produce seeds by crossing heterozygous strains, and the result is that even the F1s are variable, and a single filial cross (sibling mating) wonât do too much to make it homozygous/inbred.
It takes multiple generations to stabilize an inbred line, thatâs why so few breeders do it, and why so few seeds are produced that way. As it is, the standard is not plants that grow consistently from seed, it is a âhunt and cloneâ approach to polyhybrid seeds created by crosses of renowned strains, most of which are unstabilized hybrids themselves.
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thankyou kindly for this information dude.
Iâve screenshot that post to my phone vault.very informative.
kind regards!
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Because often itâs difficult if not impossible to know what filial state the seeds are in when you get them. Labels like landrace are often thrown around when they are in fact outcrossed to something, and because of the high variability of landrace strains itâs often even difficult to tell when they are grown out. In my experience, pure true breeding anything is as rare as rocking horse shit so I assume everything is heterozygous when I get it and work from there. Itâs all a bit moot anyway imho, we donât really have true F1, as there are no true homozygous lines to make them.