Switching to LED

Growroom Design
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#21

As long as you stay within the spec sheet values for voltage and current, you should not shorten the lifetime by much at all by running at or near the max rating.

HOWEVER - heat is the real killer. You could be running them well under the max ratings, but if they get too hot they will die faster.

Proper/sufficient cooling is the key to long life. Also, its not how hot the heat sink gets, its how hot the actual diodes get.

On the other hand, running them above the max voltage or max current is very bad for them - even if you cool the heck out of them.

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#22

max operating temperature for lm561c is 85C, cree3590s max case temperature about 90-95C with max light emitting surface temperature of 135C. if you’re running active cooling it’s highly unlikely you’ll approach anything near that running max current

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#23

Well, they do beat CXB3590 in terms of efficacy. I guess I will research that diodes for a couple of days, first results showing that they are cheaper than COB’s, more energy efficient and it takes roughly 4300 pcs. of LM561C SPMWHT541ML5XAU0S6 to replace a single 1000 W HPS or 12 overdrived COB’s with active cooling. The price of 4300 LM561C SPMWHT541ML5XAU0S6 is very good and I can buy 4300 pcs. for the same price as for the 4 pcs. of Cree CXB3590 3500K CD bin. It saves the money that I can spend otherwise, building a clone room for instance.

But connection of that LED tapes still bogging my mind. Need to visit LED Gardener, heh.

What about light penetration? It’s good thing to have in the setup, since manifolds aren’t always perfect, isn’t it?

Yeah, I get that. Bought a laser thermometer for that exact purpose.

Active cooling COB’s is easy because they are well suited for mounting in square vent channels, LM561C on the other hand can be tricky since they are going to be well distributed throughout the grow room. It’s possible to mount them into the square vent channels like COB’s but there are complications.

And speaking about LM561C - they come in tape, so are they pre-soldered toghether or what? I don’t like the idea of manually soldering ~9000 connections, not at all. Inb4 I can’t use SolStrips.

I will seriously consider buying LM561C instead of Cree COB’s. Need more research.

And sorry for the long post, I was silenced for 24 hours for being newbie :slight_smile:

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#24

Well, I’ve did some research on the part of LM561C and here is what I’ve uncovered:

  1. SolStrips are essentialy COB’s, they just have more space between separate diodes (eureka :laughing:)
  2. It’s possible to weld strips and lamps of any size and form manually.
  3. If you overheat anode/cathode of LM561C it will reduce lumen output, change the spectrum, sneak up on you while you’re asleep and strangle you to death.
  4. Soldering must be done swiftly. Datasheet restricts heating to 300 C for 5 seconds.
  5. It’s better to use PCB’s with aluminum base to encourage heat exchange.
  6. It;s better to use template to add mixed flux/soldering powder to the connectors on PCB.
  7. It’s mandatory to cool the diodes after welding, and to do so without delay.
  8. It’s better to test the visible spectrum and lumen output after soldering to ensure that you’ve done it right.
  9. Since I can’t really buy the SolStrips I probably will stick to my original setup with Cree CXB.

However, it’s going to be challenging and interesting to design a PCB suitable for growing cannabis and mount some top diodes on it. I will give it a try while as my first grow cycle will start, who know, maybe I will provide some good stuff. The whole thing is better be soldered automatically, like COB’s done, but I think I can produce a small amount of equip on my own.

I’ll hazard a wild stab and guess that SolStrips soldered semi-automatically, with some sort of template I’ve mentioned above. Imagine people high AF soldering LM561C’s under magnifying glass :laughing:

#25

its the diode most PCBs use like quantum boards, photon fantom, solstrips, chilled, i think even fluence for their white diodes. you can get tape or reel from digikey. there are also samsung branded PCB strips. and of course chinese manufacturers sell lots of sizes of PCBs.

i only have 1216 diodes and i max ~735w, about 60k lux across the canopy (no par meter). active cooling isn’t really necessary with them because of the heat dissipation cause they’re spread out over such a big heatsink. i point a fan at it when its cranked up high. i also have my drivers remote mounted tho.

the diodes are placed on the PCB by a pick and place machine. no soldering. pretty sure this is the machine HLG is buying.

edit: samsung f-series or h-series are the ones u want, previous link was LM561B M-Series

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#26

Why cant you buy solstrips?

Can you order from Digikey or some other supplier?

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#27

For price like that they should have bothered adding aluminum base at least. It’s approaching Cree CXB CD bins price, while its nowhere approaching it’s lumen output. Correct me if I’m mistaken)

How do you mean no soldering? Surely there is some heating going on to make a connection, isn’t there?

That machine has some sick commercial potential, imagine custom pre-ordered led lamp and strip builds suited for customer’s needs! And with all the legalize-it movement going on! Like it’s possible to combine different spectrums, add UV, et c.

I probably can do it semi-automatically, but the amount of effort required…

I can’t. Just assume that’s not an option. Meaning no offense, I am trying to stay anonymous here.

#28

chinese manufacturers will do that for a fair price. you can bring a gerber file and they’ll make whatever or they have a bunch of premade options. i got my last boards from china, same diode count and voltage as my quantum boards but i can’t compare em til i’m done flowering

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#29

Can’t wait for you to make that comparison, really. But as I understand chinese manufacturers will use chinese diodes as well, right? From what I’ve heard they’re shitty, but that all can be one big bias towards the China (or so I hope). Guess that I’m stuck with premade circuits for now, be it strips or COB’s, whatever. I have some time to mull it over, search for suitable vendors and all. How long you’ve been flowering under chinese build for now?

#30

i’m flowering under the qbs atm but all those companies use chinese manufacturers anyways.

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#31

Can you share some links to good chinese vendors?

#32

I think legalcanada is referring to reflow soldering. So, yes, there is solder but it’s not by hand. A stencil is created and a layer of solder paste is applied. Pick and place sets the components onto their correct location and the entire assembly is heated until the solder paste “reflows”.

Not necessarily, like anywhere, you get what you pay for and can specify specific vendors (there may be lead times). Cost of labor is going to be less expensive which is a considerable portion of the manufacturing cost. If you’ve specified a specific LED vendor part number, you do have to watch them like a hawk. Some companies try to squeeze every cent out of the Chinese manufacturers. At the same time, the Chinese manufacturers want to make a profit and, as a result, there have documented instances of non-OEM, counterfeit, or rejected components being used without the customers knowledge. If you plan on manufacturing something in quantity, you’ll need to know what you are potentially getting yourself into. It’s not necessarily straight forward and all roses. If you are just doing a one-off, personally, I don’t believe it’s worth the effort to go overseas (unless you are using it as a learning experience).

#33

That’s exactly what I’ve been thinking about. Why bother to assemble boards with original Samsung diodes when it’s possible to mix them with some chinese shit and lower the price of assembly twice, thrice, putting saved money in a pocket?

Not now, I just want good lights for my grow. Guess that I’m stuck with Cree COB’s for now, which isn’t bad at all, but also not good enough for my perfectionism.

That’s right. But I will locally print myself some PCB’s and mount diodes on manually just for fun. It’s not a big spending, anyway.

UPD: I am personally biased against any chinese components in the grow room, but if other’s experience will show that it’s worth it I might as well give it a try.

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#34

IMO there is a big difference between euro/usa companies using outsource labor in China and the chinese manufacturers themselves. Any big enough company cares about it’s reputation and therefore will watch closely it’s outsourcing facilities so there would be no deviations from the standards. The chinese manufacturers themselves… Should I continue? :smile:

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#35

was no effort, shipping took a week and almost all other boards come from china anyways. although the 2 companies (i know of) which actually sphere test their boards and share 3rd party test results both get their diodes placed in USA now, but that’s prob cause they buy their diodes direct from samsung

i just pretended i was placing a small sample order to check quality before placing a larger order. i’ll know in about a week if it’s the same output as top bin LM561C S6. i’m positive i received LM561C but no way of knowing which bin

A = LM561C S6
B = LM561C S5
C = LM561B
D = LM561B+

image.png1008×756 622 KB

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#36

Apologies, please don’t think I’m minimizing what you are saying. I think it’s great you’re applying that resource. My comment was more referring to business/manufacturing intent. Just a different thought process on my part.

I am curious though. Did you actually send them gerbers for your layout? Copper/aluminum core/sink pad?
Can you give us an idea as to the size of PCB and cost?

#37

If you want to consider other mid-powered diode strips, there is also the Bridgelux EB strips. No personal experience, but @lotus710 is killing it with them on IG.

Edit: It looks like @HalfBee is also killing it with these. Can you share some more info here for us?

https://www.digikey.com/en/product-highlight/b/bridgelux/eb-series-modules?utm_adgroup=xGeneral&slid=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI4bmWmNmP2wIVFksNCh2FuAM0EAAYASAAEgK8WPD_BwE

#38

no i got miejiu’s 304pc boards because its identical to the HLG qb304 so it would be a fair comparison. pretty positive they were HLGs manufacturer. actually i think HLG still gets their qb304s from them, only the qb288s are made in america and they cost twice as much ($130 vs $65 - i paid under $25). their new qb288s with the LM301B are made in china again cause they realized local production was too expensive (until they buy their own pick and place machine)

i think at first these chinese manufacturers tried ripping a couple people off but then they realized word would get out really quick, so they learned it’d be more profitable for them to just add 5-10 dollars to the asking price and give people what they want, but i’d still be wary about ordering 1000 boards

shenzhen hansion is another one people use

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#39

Wow, those vendors look pretty solid!

I’ve done some counting and I will stick with Cree CXB3590 setup for my first LED run.

Thank you guys for sharing all the useful info!

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#40

Thanks @ReikoX for the viewing…
The ONLY reason on EB choice was price - 2x2 box doesn’t need big money.
QB and HLG type boards are nice, but EB let’s you add more as you can afford in groups.

After working with the gen2, the leds are tightly packed and output more even across.
The plant that started flower under the Cob/EB model - later finished under all EB strips.
It was moved up to ‘canopy’ target zone intensity. The last couple of weeks it was
showing some light related stress.

The clones of the same plant in the other grow style began flower under the full EB
setup from flip. They grew up and played in and above the zone causing issues and
until the last few weeks also telling me they are in enough intensity. (foxtails wtf)

Can you hang it? - Single, double, each corner
Does it raise tent temps? - Can it run with exhaust only
Is it enough light? - QB takes several to meet their recommended coverages

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