Can you expand on this a bit? My current understanding I would call either F1 or F3 self as S1. The filial generation it comes from doesn’t matter to me. Reasoning is, that S1 generation in theory should be displaying mostly dominant traits, no? Traits dominant to the mother since the mother is who got selfed? In order to get an F2 expression you could then take an S1 and breed to a different S1 (or self it again) and then the resulting seeds should have the variance you would expect to see in the F2 generation from a normal cross. Am I incorrect in my understanding of inheritance?
Normal Filial procession - P1 + P2 = F1 → F1 + F1 = F2 → F2 + F2 = F3, etc
Selfing would be (name) selfed = (name) S1 → S1 + S1 = S2
The thing is S1 + S1 doesn’t equal S2 because that’s not quite right, but compared to what you’re looking for the in filial example (in terms of genetic diversity) that’s kind of what you could call it. In your theory it would be an… assuming we start with an S1 F3 – wouldn’t it be an S2 F3?
It becomes a nightmare to me to think about what an S1 F3 + S1 F3 = (???) compared to a when all I really care about is “am I getting that F2 variance to give me the possibility of finding that recessive pheno?” S1 + S1 = S2 to me is simple and designates the goal I’m going for.
Maybe I’m biased because I’m looking for triple and quadruple recessive phenotypes, which affect leaf morphology and flower formations. Let’s not even get into rare and unique 'noids. If not for finding recessive phenotypes what exactly is the purpose of selfing so many times?
Nice input buddy, let’s speak bolts and screws then.
But consider first my first bias : I don’t even consider fems as a genetic material, and i hate to see the seeds renamed “regular/photoperiod” to justify any alternate product. There are just seeds, like they are since the humanity know cannabis. Just to show my colors clearly.
It’s clear for me too. I consider the term “selfed” as absolutely not related with the generation and just as an additional notation.
It can make sense for me if you don’t have any constraints for the output.
but
In an EU growshop, the vast majority of sales are fems seeds. And even if there is plenty of growers and goals, the (very) regular customers of this product is pretty stable in their needs and express it in a very stable way :
They don’t want to have males and herms. To optimize their space and to don’t waste consumables/time on them.
They want the final product described by the label, for each specimen germinated.
They want plants with the same timing, the same need in nutrients (not only in hydro) and the same height.
But the gap between a label offering this and that is building a loyal base (in need of big support in production to never fall out of stock), against a large number of label experienced only one time is bigger that the noise of the cannaweb is displaying.
And most of these successful labels are offering fems built with lines (that are not fems) specifically made for it. Most of the time F1, but not only.
It’s not because customers choose it, they never know or are asking what they’re buying now; for an obscure reason (it’s sarcastic). But they are very more prone now to throw on all social medias a “go buy blindly there, never failed, it’s my cult” or a “never buy there, shitty catalog, they sux” with just one old freebies germinated.
The rules of breeding in reversal stay the same, it’s not a magic spell that fix everything and bring something bad to a high standard just by the spray. And it concern also the generation, just like any breeding project.
If you reverse a F1 on another F1, you have more chance to satisfy someone than just hacking a F1 reg release with twos females. Reversing a female don’t annihilate the heterosis phenomenom too.
Not for me. A S1 break the balance inside the genotype into a new one based entirely on an unique phenotype. If the female is the unique expression of a combo of terpens, you’re not using a time machine that change how the DNA was built in selfing the female. And your female is not only containing an unique way to express this combo of terpens. But a given potential able to express it. With a S1 you just annihilate everything outside this potential, but not the potential of the phenotype to output something else, variations or not.
And of course, you get more variations and diluted phenos with a F2 than with the original “recipe”. If you reverse a white widow F1 and cross it with a jack herer F1, it’ will be always better than a jack widow reversed on itself or even another sister to offer the initial standard of the Jack Widow F1. The genetic constraints aren’t so different that with a old fashioned BX.
And if we don’t swim in an ocean of elite cuts stabilized in seeds, it’s specially because selfing or backcrossing a specimen is not doing an army of clones of it in seeds.
Dominance is 100% contextual, i’m very not a cultist of the Vic High theory. Your pheno can be very dominant over a strain A, very recessive over a strain B, very dominant over a sister A, very recessive over a sister B … and it’s the same thing on herself but with just a limited risk to have to deal with an exogenous import to map.
The singularity of selfing a pheno on himself, over all others techniques (BX included) is to restrict the datas collected by the plant with nothing else than herself. If you can’t expect better method to explore her latent potential, you’re not restricting how she can create new expressions before a long time. And the more it last, the most skills required to set the balance exactly where you want.
But you have to be really good at it, so to have yourself the potential to stabilize any cut around and also the potential to become one of the most wealthy breeder of the world ^^ Don’t imagine that the biggest players of this game have not thinked about it allready since a while, with a firepower that is at a light year from an hobbyist.
Now don’t get me wrong, most of elite cuts are not created, but found. Which make them the perfect example that selfing is not making them magically stable or dominant. But in most of the good cases, diluted.
Beside it, creating a genetic pool able to be reinforced, catalyzed or generated later in the form of a fem release is not a matter of magic spell. And not so different than creating a strain traditionally. It’s just more a matter of luck if you choose to ignore what say the initial genotype as a whole.
Got it. In this angle there is no F2s “particular expression”, but more an “absence of heterosis” that increase with further generations until a pivot point is reached in inbreeding (by human hands and selection, not mechanically). It don’t mean necessary “unstability” (landraces are a good example), but more the range of a given spectrum. Your plants can look like clones to the F3, but express totally different potency. Just an example.
Now reversing a F1 to any other distant line will always output the same thing : a F1 line. Same thing in reversing a F10 to generate heterosis with it.
And a F1a-S1 x F1b-S1 = F1, a F14a-S1 x F5b-S1 = F1 …
Now a S1 is a F2 if the initial pheno is a F1 only. If you self a F5, you get F6 seeds and so on … the variance you get depend on your work in selection but also from where you’re working in this selection.
After this, in your example you can even make a kind of backcross without using the P1. Let’s say you reverse a F1 that become a F2-S1, you select one pheno and cross it with a further F8-S1 pheno to bring back something … it become a BX1 ^^ It’s not necessary a simple F2. The context and your own choices are deciding it.
Now for the differences of work on a traditionnal IBL, a BX, injections of reversed plants in a line etc … let’s say it depend on the skills of the breeder and the factual results. You can’t smoke a breeding plan, let the cones talk at one point.
Agreed, at least it’s how i use it.
It’s not algebra, it’s notation. To note S2 is just a mnemonic manner to say :
first step i’ve isolated a pheno that i’ve selfed in S1 seeds
second step i’ve isolated a pheno from the said S1 seeds then pollinated back with the initial female
It’s more an indication of the successive level of pressure applied, and yes i think that it’s a valuable practice.
Like keeping the track of which generation/line you’re working with. Specially when you spread the genotype worked in multiple parallel lines.
It’s not a theory, it’s how Fn+1 is used since ages. If you pollinate a F3 with a F3 from the same line, it’s a F4. I don’t understand why it look fancy ^^
S1-F3 Line A Pheno 01 x S1-F3 Line A Pheno 02 = S1-F4 Line A seeds
S1-F3 Line A Pheno 01 x S1-F3 Line A Pheno 01 = S2-F4 Line A seeds
S1-F3 Line A Pheno 01 x S1-F3 Line B Pheno 01 = F1 … and if you’re an honest breeder, you prevent your customers that it’s 100% from reversed genetic materials if their aren’t fems.
No sense, sorry. The opportunity to get this pheno is determined by what you know on its expression, your goal and your knowledge on the genotype(s) that has/have generated it. Not on a specific generation. You can also select a very recessive pheno on an ultra stable generation … just to get the most potent you can from this generation.
You don’t even need to note anything if it’s useless for your selections. If the weed is very competitive, it’s the last thing stoners will ask ^^
I don’t really figure out what is a triple or a quadruple, make me thing more about p0rn.
Actually, it’s generally used specifically to increase the occurences of the phenotypes you’re talking about. Or also to print something usually too recessive to don’t cost a shit ton of time.
Not my church at all, i prefer evolution over involution.
Love the response and discussion! Let’s get into it:
Consider me “TEAM Y” as well. Seeds are seeds. I’m with you there.
This is an important distinction for us to make. There’s a retail market for returning customers. This fact alone means there must be businesses solely designed to fill this need of the market. When currency or money is concerned, I think we lose sight of what’s best for the plant. We get into this modality of thinking where a plant is only as good as the value it generates. This is the flaw in my opinion.
When purchasing a seed you’re purchasing access to that entire plant’s DNA. Most people don’t care because they just want some good bud to smoke. If they can grow some female plants that give them good bud, they don’t worry about specifics. They don’t care about beneficial male traits or expressions. All they care about is ultra-resinous buds that finish in 8-9 weeks. Meh…
I think fundamentally here we operate a little differently in terms of what we look for as breeders.
The reason I’m biased here is the mutant phenotypes I’m interested in are all highly recessive. I also have a believe that throughout time all of the ‘special’ plants anyone has found has been recessive. I have no proofs for my claim, just my belief.
We’ve all smoked dominant expressing plants and it’s all more of the same. But if you find that once-in-a-lifetime female, there’s never another one just like her. It’s always the black pearl that’s the most sought after. While I do believe it’s also possible to find one-in-a-life males typically they aren’t coveted because only a breeder would find use in such a specimen. The average hobby breeder or home grower would never be set up to capitalize on a male like a big seed company would.
I think this is the very important point to remember. There’s a bigger fish out there with more firepower than you. Be humble and do what you can with what you have. It is enough if you let it be. It’s also a stark indication that this plant is now governed by currency. Whatever avenues generate the most currency are those that will be explored. Whatever methods that got cannabis to where it is today, those methods will be lost with time. We’re already seeing it in the long-flower sativas being replaced by modern hybrids. Why would a country who’s main export is cannabis, why would they only harvest 1 time per year when they could switch up genetics and now get 3-4 harvests a year? The currency is now the driving factor for moving plants forward. Yikes.
This is where I need to build my understanding. I’m not sure we’re on the same page here or reading from the same book even. I have a cultivar which is recessive, Freakshow. I can’t be 100% certain due to the lack of information but I believe I received it at F3. All specimen in the F3 generation show the leaf type mutation. At the bare minimum when outcrossing it will never show up in the F1 generation because it’s recessive. In any outcross to a dominant expressing plant, the F1 generation has no possibility to express the recessive phenotypes. F1s must be taken to F2 for those recessive types to be granted an appearance.
Like I said, I’m biased because I’m hunting exclusively for rare traits. I don’t care about 95% of the dominant traits in cannabis. Why? 95% of those dominant traits are available in literally any strain you could buy. I’m looking for rare traits like strange leaf types, purple flowers, red/pink stigmas, red/purple stems, ability to vine, etc. In addition to that I also have a goal of combining these unique plants into a new line to create new leaf morphologies.
Obviously my breeding goals are a bit different than most. Most people don’t care about recessives, but I’m actively hunting them.
See that’s kind of the same thing that happens to me when I think about selfing and breeding with selfed generations. Here’s something to think about. I have a plant called Giant Pur Pur at F2. It’s a lanceolate strain which means there’s only 1 finger to each fan leaf. This trait is recessive. This plant is also decently potent and very high yielding. The flower structure foxtails like crazy, but it’s completely natural. It also has red/pink stigmas. Now, since I wasn’t fortunate enough to find a male like her in the F2 generation, I did not take the generation to F3. I should also mention this particular female is unstable. A bit of stress and she will herm.
My question is, how can I isolate the lanceolate leaf type, the large foxtailing bud structure, AND the red/pink stigmas through breeding? It’s a nightmare thinking about trying to isolate all of the traits I want. The best I can do is take each line to F5 (to get ‘close to’ homozygosity) and select for those traits along the way. I also have to plant enough seeds so that I can discard the dominant plants.
Everyone who seems to have a good grasp on selfing also says it’s a very good way to isolate phenotypes but I still can’t grasp how it works. In the Sx generations I will be able to find recessives like you say, but as soon as I try to outcross them it blows up the whole sequence and you have to hunt for the recessive again in the F2 gen. No amount of selfing is going to protect my recessives in an outcross.
Maybe the deal is the recessives are too much time and work but you know what? That’s what drives me to make new crosses and find those hidden gems.
Also, Fuel, thanks for the well thought out responses! Much appreciated.
I think i will launch another pack of old seeds today, let’s call it summer cleaning.
Happy to meet an ally in a battle already losted then. We have already won the war anyway, they are giving us the final victory in a silver plate, themselves. Not only in lowering the standards each fucking year, but also in making each year of our resistance more bankable professionally ^^
I got you. My grid of reading is a bit different.
For the money first, I’ve nothing against at all. I’m pretty much liberal, the old fashioned way (not Marxist either). I think Americans call it libertarian but i don’t like their libertarians at all ^^
So i hate freebies, because i know what they are costing in the whole equation. Inflation included ^^ I also hate mechanisms that are destructing money, we work our ass of to get it … seeing freebie’s lovers burning it to roll a fatty make me crazy. Free seeds are for me belonging to the international community, not something that have to be linked with any kind of market or niche. It’s also a mine’s canary that we need.
Now let’s speak true, fems are a fucking gold mine specifically because it put in a spiraling jail the stoners. I like democracy too, if the overwhelming majority want it so bad … so be it. This gold can be invested for the long term too, to buy time, firepower, and to repair the damages done.
Seeds-to-smoke can become the R&D investors that are no longer interested to wait 3-5 years for an unique release. And let’s speak true, I’ve more often met (real) breeders disgusted to be forced by the customers to release fems to pay the bills, than the reverse.
Not much people realize it for now i think, but the true dynamic generated by this rat race … is the insane inflation of the genetic creativity and of its “know how”. Its privatization too. What we were buying in old days as a promise to have a stunning motherplant per pack, is now mostly a B2B trade.
But i’m believing in the efficiency of the market, when all decent genetic materials will be retailed 250-500 bucks as the standard price … people will not have any choice but returning to think a couple of seconds before giving their ass to a few business-school-smart-ass. Trust me or not, in Spain the wholesalers are mostly coming from stock market trading and banks ^^
I appreciate Kevin Jodrey by example (more in the 2016-2018 era than now) to give a coin, he was the voice i was surprised to see popping up from the ashes. True practical talk, true vision of the big picture and passion. He’s not perfect, i don’t idealize, but he still get my support today for the initial dynamic behind.
Practically i disagree partially, i consider all kind of mutagen factors (natural or artificial) as more than dominant. I also treat the herms in our cannabis as a dominant expression of a mutation, i got this far.
You’re not wrong at all in your described belief, most of the special plants referenced were “found” and not created. But they are all coming from created lines initially, no matter if it’s from a modern hybrid (that, unfortunately i consider as classics now) or from a cultivar of ancestral farmers that loved to get high.
By default, we are all hunting the exception in the chaos. Now for my philosophy, the difference between making this exception a stabilized expression or just a comet is the same difference between selecting a nice motherplant to smoke/sell as weed, and breeding.
Considering this, i can even dare to take a shortcut and say that cannabis breeding is mostly a pure recessive breeding affair initially. And without blushing. It’s also something not well understood and digested in the empirical approach of Mendel, the concept of dominance and recessivity is fully contextual. And not an absolute paradigm of any form of determinism.
No, and it’s why i fell in the breeding’s cauldron younger. I wanted to have at home this coffeeshop menu of the Dampkring ^^ Specially their jack herer lol Also the tangerine haze of Barney, but i digress.
The input get a ton of torque from here, and give me the opportunity to expose a methodological problematic not very well understood by “starting wannabe”, that by default don’t have enough teeths broken by major failures.
I understand the thinking behind the sentence, but in all honesty it’s for me the expression of a methodological problem not solved. Replace “once-in-a-lifetime female” per “once-in-a-whole-line female”, and we are on the same page.
Today, it wasn’t the case even just 20 years ago. Breeding was a “survival” purpose, on which you injected sometimes an investment. Seeds weren’t yet a product on the shelves of a saturated supermarket. I don’t blame or talk about it with the tears of the nostalgia, it’s how all popularization work. And the vulgarization of cannabis is in my book a good thing.
I just find sad that a lot of new breeders don’t resist much to pair all their stuff with an unique male, showing this way that the potential of their work is just in fact a motherplant’s dance. I’ve a big respect for the fools maintaining truly isolated strains in their catalog with unique pairing, even if i don’t like their work as weed. Because it’s simply how i see the things, it don’t mean that it’s the only one way to make a fire weed. But lasting in this game … it can be fairly debated by the facts ^^ How many breeders trapped by an unique cut (male or female) or an unique flagship … a bunch.
A big seed company will never capitalize on a male, it’s a management of a genpool that is completely different at this scale. Sometimes (often, to be honest) a single strain of the catalog represent a kind of white label on its own, but sold under the brand. Just like i don’t know, cars that can use an engine not made by the company.
I’m a raver-punk in the fiber, i like to show proudly to goliath how he’s weak for a single stupid detail he’s too tall to figure out. The single grain of sand that can fuck up the whole machine ^^
Don’t be humble, no way. Go fight with your objective allies, show your colors and be proud of your wounds. It’s the proof you’re not just dreaming.
Nah, sorry to say this like it (without bad intentions) but i find it pretty naive. Weed was always a currency itself, and a nice asset on itself. Prohibition or not. The hands playing with this green money have just not the same head, so the ambient changed naturally.
It maybe one of the rare market that never fail and that showed his great resilience even during world crisis, it’s a stellar horse for money lol
The methods used to make the cannabis what it is today don’t have any “doomsday” treat. Nothing is lost or disappearing, but the people lasting in this game and the rate of their renewal. Transmission too, harder than ever. Being dedicated to breeding is not an easy ride and mean a lot in term of sacrifice and compromises. You need stainless steel balls too ^^ It’s only a dream job when you’re more fascinated by the plant than by the blunt.
Here they stay the most expensive and constantly out of stock luxury buds of the black market, nothing changed.
Ancestral hash makers of Maroc don’t waited “autos” (sic) to operate multiple harvest a year. Question of point of view, but i understand what you mean about the recreational CBD rush.
Here you can find books/readings that count for me. I mean, practically.
I consider the Duckfoot and its contemporary competitor the Freakshow, as breeding exploits. I’ve only played with specific mutations revolving around the natural double ovary phenomenon of cannabis to learn the genetic cost of a mutation on the long run. Phyllotaxie too. It’s all my science on the subject, and not included in my priorities in breeding at all. Not my game ^^
My opinion : if you can’t determine what is the generation of the starting point you’re working with, just ignore it and replace it by a neutral notation. Like i don’t know, Freakshow Gen1. Something like this. Searching absolutely to label it without the insurance it’s wrong or true will more arm your methodology than helping it, specially for genetic material born initially from a mutation. Each mutation shuffle the cards on his point of generation anyway, better to map the new dynamic directly.
I think you’re mixing correlation specially because the reason i just explained. Your Freakshow material don’t “breed-true” (to please the Vic adorators) in F1 just because the balance permitting this singular expression is specifically an exploit born from an unplanned singularity that is touching the main vital functions of the plant. Maintaining this type of expression after the initial mutation is absolutely not different that creating an “auto” strain in practice.
In your equation it’s not about the recessivity as it, it’s because you have not “reverse engineered” what is creating this mutation. Even if it require a very structured system of notation, pheno-tracking and a specialized method for this job … it’s possible to understand the segregations in game (that revert back the genotype) by different kind of pressures. To stay on the subject, selfing is one of the wrenches in the toolbox. You can also spend this energy and time to just try to make it an expression not rejected by the genotype, all roads lead to Rome.
We all are buddy. Don’t feel alone like this, you have a lot more friends that you’re thinking.
I personally don’t think that what make a skunk, a skunk is the same thing that what make a white widow a withe widow. I totally disagree then.
We are used to call it breeding plans. But if it’s really your poison, go play with GA3 or any proven mutagen tools to operate a quantitative breeding to find the right firestarter. Then make your own Freakshow/Duckfoot.
In my opinion, it’s better to prepare your genetic material before : the purple bud / red stigmas / purple stem / vineyard line. Only to stabilize it in a single line is a bit expensive in term of lifespan to be honest ^^ Let’s call it the Ara line lol
People just don’t care about breeding and its realities in general, sincerely. I’m not saying it as a rant, there is people very good to pilot sport cars and that know nothing on engines. And engineers very good to build fabulous engines and that are unable to don’t crash with them. It’s the human nature in all its beauty, and the mystery of DNA combinations a little bit also ^^
It’s just a question of methodology, based on the “know how” to set different levels of selection in accordance with the ratios expressed in a given generation.
The first priority in your example is to screen out the herms from the potential. Herms that are triggering naturally are fucking chaos agent shuffling the cards each generation, so that are signing you for an infinite and spiraling mapping each generation. Running with a broken leg to be simple.
The second priority is to play Black Jack until the casino is blacklisting you ^^ The analogy is not even fancy actually.
The more you’re charging on you the constraints of results, the less you have chances to win the game. Because you depend on an unique exceptional case regrouping the constraints. Better to play the delta, and even more efficient, including the failures of the croupier in your factor of success.
Split your efforts, create three specialized lines and work the traits independently with this strategy in mind. But before everything, write down in a piece of paper what it represent in term of work and time. To rationalize your goals and the efforts that need to be developed. How many time and money cost one round of screening ? Can I afford it considering the dead line ? What is the ratio of occurrences per round ? Is it increasing each time or i’m making mistake ? … a good breeding plan always start with good down-to-earth questions ^^
I’ve spotted a hint of Vic High cult ^^ Homozygosity is not related with any given generation, it’s just an award or a curse of a given work of selection applied correctly. Yes, you can engrave fucking bad things for good in doing rightly the job too. Homozygosity is also this, and is this most of the time by the way : what we are fighting most of the time to get the sexy exception or the given refinement.
Split your efforts, choose a quantitative approach is you don’t really want to know what is generating these traits and don’t lost time on the sex of angels : just rush methodologically until the results are coming. But never forget to evaluate the progress with ratios at each step, one good perfect pheno per round isn’t a victory. In term of ratios it’s the reverse actually ^^
Because it’s generally poorly expressed on the practical aspect, masked by a shit ton of cascading technical veils. Now, for one time, this is a personal judgement i permit to myself ^^
Selfing is one way to isolate a phenotype, but the only one practical way to generate a new genotype in one round with this phenotype. That’s the real thing to understand actually.
In printing the phenotype on itself, you reveal clearly the weight of the hunted traits for the progeny.
Reinforced ? Diluted ? Annihilated ?
Don’t fall too much in the passion of some, it’s not an automated manner to suddenly produce an army of the “saved” phenotype. Breeding requirement still around the quality of the results, and it start at the selection of the initial said phenotype.
No, these recessives phenotypes are no longer recessives. The concept alone of recessivity doesn’t even exist in a S1 progeny, because there is no longer a genotype on which is based this recessivity but the artificial one you have “handcrafted”. For the better and the baddest.
In a second layer you have the concept of genetic sturdiness. If the phenotype heavenly fit on itself without much letting room in term of priorities, he will eat everything or at least suddenly stabilize the outcross. Just like a well operated backcross (not based on a mutation). Will it last forever ? No. And generally selfed and BX injections vanish very fast while inbred. But it’s like with an IBL, maintaining a line require cares and to know the variations like your kids. It’s why it’s also important to write decent, practical and rationnal breeding plans before launching any single seed.
I totally hate what i will say, but yes it’s possible. But we are talking about a kind of skills set that represent a fair amount of digits per year on the paycheck ^^ And we are not talking about a stakhanovist method limited to self in chain one cut, but a mix of technics used in a dedicated method for the project, that is evolving in real time with the plants. Not even something that can be asked to the best “Vic High or DJ Short” of the world, because it’s just impossible to write black on white.
Like asking to a rallye pilot how he exactly turn, brake, accelerate, transfer the mass … the whole time each second. It’s just impossible to replicate, even in recording every single action in real time.
Good philosophy, stick to it.
You’re just lucky to catch my trolling while i’m waiting for these fucking seeds, in a very little corner of the big OG ^^ Time to launch the next oldie by the way. Nice talk, thanks for the stimulation ;o)
Marketing and vicious AstroTurf is a fabulous inbreeding tool , it remove fast the most annoying scories of the phenos : the free will ^^
Precisely what I was thinking about this thread. Reversing is a tool like many others in the breeder’s toolbox, and one can use it when it suits the situation and more importantly, the objectives. It doesn’t solve everything by itself.
I second Fuel (mostly) on their statement regarding nowadays breeding, or breeding techniques/strategies in general. Maybe that’s because my fiber is close (hardcore-punk) but I don’t trust the market though, I’m more in the anarchist mindest
Sorry to post here guys,I Ve been through the text walls,and,as an auto fem only grower,I wanted to ask 3 things:
1What are your thoughts on autos for a tiny project/selection of a specific trait such as colors
2What are your thoughts on having to use only autos,do I Need to buy some “regular” seeds to select males too?
3My space Is a 80cm80cm170height.I use Coco coir and could fit a good Number of solo cups/Little pots with automatic feeding inside for a very personal breeding project.What would you do with this setup?My main goal Is achieve a stable Purple color and having lot of autos “feminized”.
Thanks and Sorry to interrupt your discussion
PS:I already completed a seedrun and crossed successfully two autos with STS,so this part of the job Is nailed
Yep. I like to refer that as the “Gool ol’ boys club”…only those wealthy participants can participate in the B2B trade. In the U.S. one has to be licensed and insured up the wazoo to be able to participate in the retail market. Maybe other countries are different but since currency is driving factor I doubt it.
See, I don’t care about mutagen factors from artificial means. Nature doesn’t do it so I won’t either. I am concerned with mutagens that occur naturally, and are repeatable. To me this doesn’t make it a ‘mutation’ it’s a ‘trait’. As such I can breed for it. As a laymen who only uses observable criteria I don’t really want mutations I want genetic diversity. I want to choose the phenos which express the way I want, and disregard the rest. Isn’t that what everyone else is doing too?
I can agree with this statement. The important bit is context… what we’re trying to do. When someone says, let’s breed cannabis now without using males… without any context my brain says… that’s just as wrong as saying we can remove men from humanity and mankind will survive…
Sure it’s an apples to oranges comparison but it still seems silly to me.
I don’t understand this context. To me, such a female is one in the same. It’s the rare gem in the bunch. It’s the prized trophy of a search well hunted. How many breeders are hunting through thousands of the same genotype of plant for that one special gem? It seems to me that rather than look for those ‘gems’ the goal of the breeding plan is to bring every individual specimen into a realm of ‘potent’ or ‘good’ so that one doesn’t concern themselves with the gem when the average is good. They want each fem seed to produce roughly the same plant every time. The variance in height, flowering times, etc are detrimental because of the customer base that’s purchasing the seeds. Most people don’t have use for a 25 ft strain (which no doubt has some superior growth traits) but they want something that’s going to be quick to yield and provide the blunt at the end.
Maybe in a different place. Nothing to fight here except for time. My colors have been stained by the blood of the innocent, so I fight for the living instead the dead. My government has become too corrupt to support, so I actively work to change it every day. While I do idolize the mindset this comes from, here you’re just getting yourself all jacked up for nothing. Pride isn’t what it used to be… now it comes with many colors…
No offense taken. It might be naive but isn’t it more of the same? If weed is a currency and currency is currency, the ambient hasn’t changed at all. Supply and demand still applies.
Thank the Lord he gifted me a green thumb! I’m more fascinated by the plant than the blunt… but the blunts are a nice reward for taking care of my plants. We reap what we sow…
Here they’ve never been a part of the market. Never. I had to grow them myself. Additionally my climate is too far north for a sativa. So for some, it’s an expensive commodity if you have the money. For me, no amount of money can grant me access. The only access I get is through overpriced seeds. You know what? It’s better for me to pay ~$400 for a single landrace cultivar than try to find buds sourced from the place. I could spend tens of thousands, and in some places end up in prison. My love for the plant is big, but not life ending big.
Thanks for linking the breeding references! I will definitely check them out when my brain is cooling down from my other studies.
This is where we fundamentally part ways. Duckfoot and Freakshow are just two of such ‘exploits’. There’s also Australian Bastard Cannabis, Giant Pur Pur, and Mnogolistka.
ABC and Freakshow get a bad rep because they’re a bit slow to veg. As far as I’m concerned each of these mutant varieties has good potential. After being released and having the public work Freakshow into their own hybrids I can easily say that the problems experienced from this ‘mutation’ are already starting to be worked out by the public. I’ve seen ABC specimen over 3 meters tall. I’ve seen Freakshows with buds that regular strains only dream of. Whatever detriments the mutations hold, can be fixed by breeding; I am convinced.
Again we go back to context. What we all are seeking.
You’re right, it’s exactly the same process.
The mutation isn’t something to be engineered it’s a trait found within the populations. It’s all driven by genetics. By reverse engineering are you meaning selfing those recessive expressing specimen to ‘explore the genotype’? If so I fail to see how this is helping isolate those phenotypes. Sure you can find more female specimen that display a variety of traits within that “Freakshow” type but if I want to isolate that phenotype in seed form I can only do it by taking recessive F2s and breeding them together. The resulting F3 generation (in nearly all mutations I’ve seen) lead to 100% of the progeny having the leaf type. It’s repeatable and such in my opinion a trait and not a mutation.
You’re missing the point I was trying to make. A skunk and a white widow will have many many traits that look the same. They will both be frosty, both smelly, and generally probably have good growth traits. Internode distance, flower density/size, etc… What makes them unique from each other is the recessive traits they express. In this example the recessive trait may be resin content for White widow. Skunk may be recessive for smell, as it’s a lot smellier than white widow. Bottom line, if I want any of the dominant traits from either strain, a simple F1 outcross would show me the dominant traits that both strains have. Does this make sense now?
Ah here is the problem. That plant that you want to stabilize… it hasn’t been birthed yet. There isn’t a plant with all of those combined traits. If there was we would know about it. Been on the internet long enough to know if there’s plants with any of these traits they’re all recessive. Being recessive means finding all of them in one plant is not only impractical it’s nonsense. Once-in-a-line becomes no different than hitting the lottery. I would rather not play that game.
Ah well this is where it gets fun! I must digress from the mutants and now focus on landrace. As mentioned if I want to try a sativa I must grow it out. They’re never available here; never. So I found a line which must be highly inbred because it comes from a place where cannabis carries the death penalty. It’s also known on the internet to be a herm-only line. I’ve selected a Malawi male to breed with this sativa (Sumatra Banda Aceh) to hopefully improve the sexual stability of the cross, while maintaining all of the wonderful sativa-only qualities. Most people wouldn’t dare touch a herm-only strain but I look at the opportunity to learn and grow as more powerful than what that individual line can teach me. It’s a stepping stone for me to learn from. If I started with fully stable genetics, what advantage would that have? I don’t see any myself…
That’s why I’m really only concerned with the leaf type. If I get all kinds of other nifty recessive traits that’s just a bonus.
I’m not sure what the Vic High cult is so I’m curious, what is the ideology here?
Yeah for me it’s not finding that 1:10,000 special lady. I’m more focused about selecting the right F2 partners so that when I germinate the F3s, all are mutant-leaf.
I think this is why selfing and feminizing in general have confused me so much. With my context trying to use it is like trying to do construction framing with a wrench. Like wtf mate?
Ok so within this new genotype you’ve isolated what are you looking to find in the progeny? You can’t isolate any of it unless you do further in-breeding on the line. If this is the goal, fine…but there will be a point where you can’t continue a line anymore due to inbreeding depression.
Am I missing something here?
I will have to disagree on this stance then. I don’t think it’s possible to protect a recessive trait in an outcross. Even with a fair paycheck we’re talking about breaking inheritance. If we can do that I can guarantee it’s in a lab somewhere, not in nature. I’m only concerned with what nature can provide. It’s provided for humans for our existence on this planet throughout time. A tried and true method we’re botching badly. My two cents.
My thoughts are… sounds difficult. If you do achieve it, make sure you make tens of thousands of seeds. Several are out there, but as FEM autos you know there’s a finite supply.
There are auto-males too. If you wanted to have regular seeds and make your own autos that would be a good avenue. A non-auto male will give you a mixed bag in the progeny, which will then need to be worked and selected in order to get the auto trait to express.
Myself, I would go with a less is more attitude. Since you’re using fems, pack in there only what you feel will give the best results. I know autos can be very particular in what they like and need. Trying to force more in there may actually harm your yields if each doesn’t have what it wants. A little out of my wheelhouse though, sorry I can’t be more helpful.
Congratulations on your completed seed run and I wish you the best! And FYI everyone is part of the conversation so you’re not interupting! We’re all here to learn
Thank you so much @crunkyeah
What I understood:
Not using too much plants
Start from a genetic that should have the traits I search because autos are not to be revegged and are a thinking bomb.
Should save Tons of seeds if I Will succeed.
Now,my cross intended to accomplish Purple buds or leaves,selecting 2 strains that have this in theyr gene pool.Moms also didn’t show Purple.
I planted 6 of those F1 and none has given me Purple ( until the very end of ripening but i think because of the senescense) and so I ask myself:what should I do with this F1 progeny?Pop more seeds or cross some sisters with STS?
Next seeds launched, I’ve to stop at one point. Maybe i will add some sensi star tommorow, just to have a full tray for the fun of the completion. Cross the fingers for me, they are pretty much old and in bad state.
The need for seeds is mostly if something attract you, or if it’s heavily in the color you’re searching. The plan look clear in your head, and you known how to use STS. Everything is there to offer you the experience you searching.
I will buy a Shiva Shanti II, and sog it from seeds very dense (after the initial fast repro on two or three pairing) like a maniac to make it highly destructive and tasty. More easy, more fast, more strong, more vigorous, more options, no useless genetic maintenance. This strain or any other cheap classic able to make a dense SOG. But it’s just me ^^
Punks are the soul of the world ^^
Not really this kind of club in EU, almost all social classes are represented. Reliable, safe and constant hands are too rares to be elitist. This is not a game where you can hit&run also, it imply a lot of things here.
A mutation can express a visible trait, an invisible trait, stay latent … it’s not so binary. If you have the rosetta stone of this leaf shape, just rush then.
I will not speak for the others but for me at least, no. I’m just reading the plants constantly, and i adapt what they say to my goals. Sometimes even at the last minutes of the dead line ^^ Sometimes also they just say nothing, and it become something to take in count.
Just the concept of removing arbitrary a whole expression of the life, in the life itself is disturbing for me ^^
But it permit to introduce quickly a funny detail i like with cannabis : the males carry the whole datas for the male’s progeny and the female’s progeny. Even those not sexually linked. The female, not ^^ Their DNA is partial.
In humans it’s the reverse, the male’s DNA is partial ^^ Fast digression for the fun of this analogy.
My reform of your sentence in a “once-in-a-whole-line female” was more to express how look like a long term hunt among many strains explored, many parralel line of the same strain explored and so on … an infinite loop of sweet memories.
And it’s not so complicated to drive, even with a limited space. With a good planning, a structured methodology and a good density … you can screen a lot. And it can be as ghetto than this …
… to screen thousands. Let’s not make it a super power only able to be piloted by the choosen ones ^^ Everyone enough crazy in love of this plant can do it in almost all conditions, “famous breeder” or not.
Pretty much yes, if the averages of the next generation is not increasing then the selection was technically failed. Now if the super-pheno found in this generation was the ultimate goal to close the project, it’s a success. But you know, one time you see it’s possible to generate this pheno … it’s hard to don’t search what the fuck you missed to make them all like this ^^
They don’t know what they miss then ^^ The day they will realize it, be ready and take your cut
My very first pure sativa was acclimatized to alps peaks directly, in guerrilla growing. She often finished the feets in the snow. You can be amazed on how they can perform in nordic lattitudes one time they have understood wtf was going on.
Sometimes it’s better to give up and to switch on another line, but yes with enough time and constancy almost everything is possible with this annual and it never stop to amaze me.
I’ve made the necessary to no longer have to self specimens, so i just don’t ^^
It’s more to understand the genesis of one expression i’m facing, and for this I have to understand how it segregate more than how I can maintain it. It’s like diving in the guts of the dynamics of the strain, it’s fascinating even if you find nothing. It’s always something to use later for a similar case or pattern.
Not to isolate but to generate, and more tailored if possible of course ^^
You can also operate multiple parallel backcrosses, generate your own freakshow … there is many ways. Now it’s really not in my interests in breeding, better to shoot a contact to those involved in these projects. Wallyduck is here i saw lastly, OG still OG ;o)
Both equally frosty : damn no.
Both equally smelly : hell no.
Both good growth traits : yes, even in the resistances, but totally opposites in all.
Same internodal space : hell no.
Same flower density : no way ^^
It’s also why i repeat in loop all over OG that knowing its classics is very important.
Both are pretty much stable and very predictable in outcrosses, what is making them uniques is the addition of all their specificities and how distant they are from each other for the said specificities.
No but your interest is just not there, what’s wrong with that. Nothing. We have all our own priorities.
I don’t say no to a good blunt of SK#1 x WW by the way, it’s the kind of funky ambivalent smoke i’m liking ^^ Let’s call it “pre-60 SK#51 Area nobody cut x Super White Berner original” to push the youth to taste it.
Totally the game i like to play ^^ Taking the time to prepare the right genetic materials, then shock them like a particle collider. Hell yeah. But it’s not lottery, it’s years. It’s just that i don’t give a damn fuck about the colors in general, at all.
The error was to don’t screen your stuff before making the hybrid, because the goal was the same : reducing the herm dynamic. Better to screen before a F1 in general.
Having screened the Sumatra for others. Even if it’s an old fashioned etiquette, i still believe in its proven utility today.
I’ve posted some walls of texte there too, but the concept is clearly exposed.
Yes a few that i can’t really enumerate on the fly, you can find in the Vic High topic a bunch of detailed leads expanding a bit more the problematic.
On the inbreeding depression, there is no limit but the skills. What we call in our stoned world the “inbreeding depression” is mostly an human problematic ignoring totally by example the industry of hemp (the real one) that don’t pass its time to debate on who have the real cut to sell in no stabilized seeds version ^^ .
But it’s a Darwinian funnel, the more you push the generation … the more you have to be ready and able to set safe strategies and accurate pheno tracking. Errors are far more dramatic with a two digits IBL than with a cascading poly-hybrid F1, the margin is mechanically more tight.
Breeder Steve disagree by known facts (releases), that i had the opportunity to inbred during two decades in bonus ^^ And i’m at the point do it again for the fun by the magic of OG. It’s really a mysterious place where strings theories sometimes apply
The reverse, the most you can.
Breeding eat a shit ton of seeds. So first establish a strategy that feed the ogre.
Second, evaluate what the fuck is going on with the purple coloration : make a ratio with enough plants (50 at least, that you can multiply by two to make a %). You’re not in the obligation to launch 50 at a time, you can launch multiple batchs of 10 (by example). It’s just more long.
Why not just cull early everything not purple simply. Do you figure out how many seedling to kill you can fit in your space ? I don’t think ^^ Screen the shit out lol, take notes and make ratios. So you can evaluate first if the said cross is worst the ride (over 50% purple) or just a bad choice of genetic material (below 50%).
It will be a good start ^^ Unleash the hell, stop your brain’s juice.
Best wishes for your old beans buddy! Looks like you know what you’re doing so I have faith you’ll find success. Maybe not 100% but nothing is perfect anyways…
Ah well I’m glad at least in other parts of the globe cannabis is treated a little differently. Here in the US it seems it’s all about the most hype strain and most THC content. I looked into getting into retail with the genetics I have and just applying for licenses a business is going to spend $200k to get established. That’s also assuming a license is granted after all those fees… of course nothing is guaranteed and the fees are all non-refundable, go figure…
Also on top of that are extremely strict quality control standards, and all kinds of red tape which can normally be bypassed with enough paid fees. It’s a rich person’s game here, unless you want to be a hobby grower and grow at home. Pretty much every ‘legal’ state is this way; it’s all become about corporate profit and what profits the shareholders are experiencing. Business has taken over and now the plant is just a commodity no different than Coca-Cola… used to be medicine capable of curing diseases worldwide but now it’s the same as a pack of cigs or a pack of beer… sad…
Can you expand on this a little? I’ve never read material about ‘partial’ DNA. So you’re saying the males carry all the DNA for both sexes but the females are only partial to what they express? So males have ‘all the genes’ and females just select from the male’s genetic pool? Really fascinating concept to me that I’ve never heard before. I’d be delighted to read more about it. Still haven’t really looked into the links ya shared though… I will before my next post
While I get where you’re coming from where you just adapt your plant counts to fit into the space you have available this isn’t exactly what I meant to say. There are so many good cannabis lines these days that you can grow most any plant line and have something decent to smoke. I’m referring to those special females which are found. 98% of hobby growers will never hunt a line to find those special females. We just germinate what we can, and work with what we can. If we think there’s something better out there we’ll just try a different strain. There’s too many ‘good’ strains available for people to pheno hunt for those rare females. It’s infinitely easier to just sprout another breeder’s beans than try to sort through 10,000 crap plants to find the one good one, ya feel me? It’s about the path of least resistance.
Heh… no way am I sharing. They can buy my seeds and grow their own. No way am I selling any flowers that took me half a year to grow. Sorry not sorry.
I think this statement really solidifies to me your outlook on selfing. Correct me if I’m wrong but it seems like you will use selfing to explore a line for informational purposes… how certain genes express, etc. It doesn’t seem like you have intentions to work the self’d lines it’s more along the lines of providing you information than you then can take the ‘main’ generation and work that accordingly?
If so, I like this ideology. It gives you information without forcing you into a self-breeding program.
I like the thought and that would certainly be the most steadfast approach. However I do not intend on making profit on another man’s work. If I can take 2 unique lines and create my own blended line, to me that’s a new unique product, and such I don’t have karmic guilt over stealing another man’s work. If I backcross to a special plant someone else made, they deserve the credit not me. If I make my own line from P1 and P2 well… not only are the F1s unique but so are my F2s.
Basically with a backcross you’re still leaning on the original breeder’s genetics, and I want to create new ones.
Hmm, very interesting. Can you explain the differences side-by-side? If I asked a 5 yr old the differences between what skunk looks like and what white widow looks like, could a 5 yr old tell me the differences? As someone with a trained eye, you see things other do not because they lack the experience you do. Sometimes I think we get a bit too subjective when it comes to the scale at which we judge cannabis. Most modern strains I’ve seen all look the same.
A 5 yr old can look at my mutants and see they are different. It’s not a ‘spectrum’ of differences like your are. It’s an apples to oranges difference. My Drunken Bastard’s flowers look entirely different than my Freaks. Resin content can very as different strains have different lengths of resin glands. Some are really short and some stick out like crazy hair.
I guess in some way I’m similar. I would take P1 and P2 to F2 and then hunt the F2s like crazy rather than start a backcrossing/selfing breeding program. It is lottery if you don’t intend on going through every last plant you can. It’s nice to say it’s just a matter of time but is it? Can you keep smoking the same F1 cross you made 20 years ago? I like variety so I would rather not just work 1 cross. Even if I do find a lot of variety in the F2 generation by F3 or F4 you’re starting to really blend both strains together well, which leads to most plants being similar to their siblings.
Ah man… that’s such a refreshing statement to read. It’s very old fashioned, and very rare to see in today’s world. I wish I could share in that belief but on my end it’s impossible for me to think about gifting seeds I paid good money for. Having no friends and being constantly pushed by the system to ‘make more money’ it leaves me with a bitter taste for sharing seeds.
I’ll have to look into the Vic High thing a little more before I’m not sure I understand the ideologies behind it.
I have to disagree, because of this Sumatran. Check this out:
See the little one? My first landrace runt! Is it a runt though? Who knows… according to everything I can read about Indonesian cannabis (since it’s death penalty illegal) is there is absolutely no outside influence from foreign strains. Looking at various things throughout time it seems cannabis has been ‘on the move’ around the world since the 1920s. Can we realistically estimate that the Indo strain may be 50+ years old? with no outside influence in genetics?
If so, can we explain how every seed germinated in the same window, how every seed got the same dirt, same clover seed planted, same environment. Yet one of the 6 is small. A small landrace sativa??
I would love to see it! Won’t believe it until I do When you can take a P1 recessive and make an F1 recessive from it, I’ll start seeing things your way.
There’s so many beautiful music instruments, would be a shame to not try them all.
Sometimes you just gotta stick to something and rock the f out of it bruh
Nothing new on the sprouter, 8 days on the first batch of seeds to yesterday for the last ^^ Nothing dramatic for now, i let me around one month and a couple of special soups to declare them losted for good. But i can’t just throw them in the trashcan, i will burry them in the garden. It’s psychological, kind of symbolic too.
It helped me to realize that if i was losting the Zamal x Ghanna, it will create a psychological hole. And if i consider it, it make me feel that i’ve to bring back some africaans in the new genpool. Without launching these seeds and letting them dry more, my brain will obliterate this equation.
These seeds was stored mostly because it wasn’t possible to decently include them in a trade last year with their bad state (found on a forgiven drawer lol), not considered as breeding materials already. But just the fact to have them … it biased viciously my awareness of the need/want of the actual choices. How silly is a psychology of a stoner sometimes. I was at the beach today, nice waves and all. Tomorrow i will launch the last batch (Sensi Star) to clean my fucked brain from this old stock.
Finally the first seeds of the year, after 6 months of nightmare to screen one of the most misunderstood strain of the Sensi catalog, the Big Bud. You can throw a shitstorm, i’m used lol But take care, if you don’t give aside details only a BB’s grower can know … i will catalog you as a nerd and not a weed nerd
This one is kind of multi-layered. The two lowest secondaries were pollinated with the Shishkaberry pollen of @SHSC-1 who, last month, changed fairly my mind on the use of dryed/freezed pollen. I’m still a “fresh pollen” defender, but he put some water in my wine by the facts since. The remaining buds of the plants are pollinated with a brother. Culled today, he done his job well. I’m expecting another pairing with a male that I’ve tortured very badly, if he resist well and if I’ve a clean female for him (not won yet ^^).
Just breeding’s smal talk, and just to show that the daily journey is more about farming with what you have than squeezing brain juice.
May Jah ear you ^^
Not counting on them but as you have maybe read previously … it’s sometimes more complicated that it look. I’ve already thrown an eye around, the offer is dry to get some africaans. And when you’re a bit specific, it become even more complicated. Don’t talk to me about Ace or World of Seeds please ^^ I liked the work of Afropips and Africa Seeds, unfortunately this kind of good projects don’t last in general.
Not the first i ear critics of this system, with this pattern. Someday I’ve to put a feet on this continent to feel the vibes myself, the inclusion (but not by the banks sadly, fools) of cannabis on a national economy is fascinating me. And beside all legit critics that can be made, here we knew it only by the Dutch case. That is at a light year from USA/CAN dynamic, in having started a lot earlier. I’m a kind of admirative on this angle of the equation, but i’m not a dreamer at all in another hand.
Structured market is ok for me, but damn 200K for the starter pack and the network required to have … to make it streamlined, or even possible i guess, is insane. And dangerous for corruption, and i consider corruption as dangerous for democracy.
On controls … i like the way Oregon is managing it. I’m serious. I like it. For everything else, well … business is a shark tank with universal rules for all markets by definition ^^ I’ve nothing against business lol
And places like Overgrow (#1 & #2) are very important in my books to give the change against the excess of business that can’t be dodged. By a base of an army of “David”. Yeah the punky grain of sand again ^^
Both camps have their flaws and qualities anyway … but education of stoners, any type, is the absolute key that balance the things, i think. I’ve learned fast to never critic an offer before understanding the pressure of the demand from where it born. And it hate fems as a whole equation since the very first pack sold ^^
I’m able to produce lead breeding documents but I’m not very much the right guy to teach the mystery of the biology, phyto and all this funk. Like the lead-PhD-genetician-scientist of Trilogene Seeds discovering the use of cannabis polyploids in 2023 (it’s a kind taunt, i respect his researches). On a daily basis and at the end of the chain, all these smart asses need this guy that make the things real and that is talking with plants more than with humans ^^
It’s not a new age or a kind of esoteric concept in fact, it’s how it’s maded (for humans too) by said by me . And you’re asking the development of this entertaining digression to someone that restrict strictly his education (on this matter) to what he’s able to use with the hands and to transform it in something reliable. So be prevented, you can be burned in public place (just for the pleasure most of the time) if you quote my utilitarian shortcuts.
I need to start with something that a close friend is hating. And i need to roll another one, i fucking love this JH.
So cannabis have sexual chromosomes and autosomes (not specified sexually). Only with this, you’re immolated lmao
The real singularity (for me, i only care about cannabis) is in the allocation of these datas and their types.
To be dioecious, cannabis just push a male’s chromosome occurrence and not much more. Everything else is autosomal.
So a (true) male carry the potential of his sexual chromosome and the autosomal potential (both restricted by the phenotype). Which represent in this plant the whole picture : males and females.
Females carry the autosomes and are female because they don’t carry the male’s chromosome. Let’s say a silly thing but clear : they are not female because they are females, but they are female because they are not males. It’s the principe of autosomes.
Now this is not binary and it become a bit tricky i guess without a bunch of rounds to screen for herms by example. Or asking yourself after many failures “why the fuck in this hybrid the female’s terps of the strain ABC are never reinforced” ^^.
The autosome permit the expression of male’s traits, female’s traits and every nuances between them … if there is no male’s chromosome.
It’s why i’m a bit sad when i see a “regs are 50/50 males/females”. You can have 25% males, 75% males, 100% males and restricted to a single 10bag, even no males. The marketing don’t decide it arbitrary.
The JH is kicking/stacking, it’s enough damned long i suppose ^^
But to finish on something more down-to-earth, when you say “i screen this lines for herms”. No one will burn you, even the more nerds of the nerds. Everybody understand it quite easily no matter if they agree or not with your strategy.
When i say “I’m very angry to have to screen the shit out from these three digits commercial releases”, in my brain it translate in : let’s inject males back, enough strong to make this line more strongly dioecious each round. And if you don’t do it with a true male, it’s just like doing nothing.
I disagree, the fallout of standard of quality offered by seeds is a reality for me. What i called decent yesterday, is today something that need work … on something supposed to be already worked and sold as it. I really dislike it, because i consider the prices as not in accordance with this lowered standard.
On cuts it’s a bit more complicated, but we are not talking about breeding really. Everyone can screen a shit ton of seeds and just keep a fire weed that is bland genetically. I’m not throwing a shadow on this particular and important library of references, i’ve some favored cuts myself (to smoke and/or to work with), but it’s important to call a cat, a cat. And also to don’t lure the wannabe that owning one cut is enough.
I think they are all doing this if they have in mind to make a motherplant to smoke during a time. At least. And from the casual stoner to the weed producers (generally responsible of most of elite cuts).
I don’t classify breeding in this dynamic, it’s a different approach. It’s initially made to last, transmit, used to generate elite cuts and eventually to survive you as the ultimate reward.
When you know well your classics, you realize fast how narrowed an lazy is the actual genpool. Hided by fancy stories, ego wars and marketing of all sort. Not so many good strains, no. But a lot of diluted versions of what offered the golden age of cannabis that i personally place in the 90’s.
Older farts than me will disagree because the very old lines, but they can’t disagree on the fact that in 90’s we were able to choose easily on the way taken. No bulldozers to make everything flat, just the usual trendy cycles that don’t changed much the diversified horizon.
Choosing the right lines to start is a real problematic today, even in knowing perfectly what you need.
Same page on this. In even a bit more radical and salty maybe ^^
It’s contradictory ^^
Hey thanks, and 100% well sifted. At the difference that i have choosen (recently) to no longer explore. Let’s say without entering in details that it’s my little reward for all the craziness of the past, and its sacrifices.
So the STS will mostly stay on bottom of the toolbox, just in case of …
It’s an incredible experimental tool, and a good compass. Now it’s a factual debate with a friend to know if it’s possible to stay competitive with a “male’s breeding”, in generating breeding materials with it. I’m strongly convinced that it’s not possible, even in term of speed in term of improving rate of each generation. I go this far ^^ I renew the way i can the pleasure to make seeds lol Like a stoner.
It’s remembering me that i want to roll another one, but i shouldn’t. The JH is a synaptic doping to a certain point, after it just melt your brain in a THC/THCV soup. And i will launch all seeds in the house also ^^
I understand the finality plainly, but as a legit reward of your efforts.
Not all are like DJ Short, totally crazy to see his genetic used and asking fancy constraints, royal teas and more to have the “honor” to screen his Blueberry … he never understood that to be famous for something is a duty for the global genpool. Not a privilege. You have to do it again, or to pass the hand.
On the other side you have chunkers that are just hacking plain catalogs with a single pollen donor and sell the release as it. If not direct double-fems.
I think there is a elegant way in the middle that can be found.
Now on the absolute concept, you’re in the technical obligation to continue the work of someone else. Even in basing your breeding on landraces of ancestral drug’s cultivars. I’m all for an elegant manner to use genetics, but not on a point that make no sense philosophically. Call it a punk-thing if you want, just sharing my angle.
On a very personal aspect, if i have to heal a strain to use it I consider it mine without any form of hesitation. Now the context can count. If i work with someone it’s totally different that the case where i have to sell a kidney to literally buy a genetic material. It’s not binary in my head, but contextual.
In another hand i’m not the guy that hide his sources in any way, i’m for a full transparency. No matter what, who and how much it’s polemic, i always credit the last shepherd in date before me. I’m not in karma-things, for me it’s just peace of mind. I need space for my breeding plans ^^
So yes, i hope you will find the best rational ratio for you without being idealist at the point to rewrite how the reality is. No one own cannabis you know, we are not gods or supreme entities, and it’s good like this in my book. And i totally piss on the face of those patenting beings of all kind of forms also lol
No i sincerely i can’t. Not even because i start to be seriously baked but because it’s also a big task that will get out from the entertaining share and the discussion. I’ve to talk also about the main variations, the inner problematic of lines,my manner to select both, the patterns … but i can explain why to discover it, or not.
At first, the 5yrs old kid equation. Plant randomly a bunch of seeds of skunk#1 and of black widow in a gigantic greenhouse and even if you know nothing about cannabis you will be able to tag them in two main group at the speed you’re walking, without knowing what the fuck it is. And it’s not a caricature.
The scale doesn’t really matter, if i mix 5 seeds of both in a bag and that a beginner grow it … it will be equally easy. If he or she don’t cheat in watching closely the patterns of the seed’s shapes lol
They are both permissive weed machine as reliable indoor than outdoor in almost everywhere, but they are expressing it differently.
Without doing the marketing of two wealthy companies that don’t need my ass for free to promote them, it’s simple to expose.
The WW/BW is like a rounded bush that like to grip the soil like a giant hand, a skunk will grow more in a taller and pyramidal shape, digging deep in soil with less main roots but thicker. Only at this step, it’s enough to sort them fast for anyone.
Now on buds, the WW/BW is coated by trichomes and leafy on floral spots where the skunk is not specially covered but with “well-groomed” floral. Specially along the trunk. You that while flowered it become even more easy.
And it don’t end at the plants, it continue on the final product. The skunk buds are lightly aerated, you can squeeze it a bit without breaking the bud while the WW/BW will be more hard and sticky but not drastically much. A WW/BW will not smell much while a skunk also develop something strong in very various ways : it can be an acrid musk like … a fruity or sugared scent, or the both, or the three ^^
The WW/BW is very sweet to smoke, soft and dense in throat while the skunk is more frank and raw. The WW/BW is calming and make you think there not enough hamac in the world, while the skunk can be used as a day-smoke. The first is almost all on the body and swear in head while you’re done, the skunk it’s the strict reverse : it start by a warm wave in head. Skunk have more ceiling while you’re abusing it, but both can be very strong
You see that at each step, it’s not a question of nuance but a strict difference. I pass on the motherplants, the cloning perf and the SOG potential … the list continue. Hybridization potential ? same.
And my mantra is that everyone have to know these differences, it’s more important that they can figure out for the next time they get hyped ^^
I took these two because they are pillars that everyone know by the name, but it exist a shit ton of others combos that are as distant. Like i don’t know, making the difference between the potential of a pure Northern Lights (Ortega to stay around your borders) and a stabilized Afghani. Both are afghanis, but when you known how grow a Northern Light … you discover a shit ton of strains based on it and not necessary sold as it ^^
Then, strains after strains … you start to see the nuances you’re talking about. It’s not necessary to know them all, but at least the most used is a very good thing and can help to realize that marketing is more destroying the education of stoners than helping it in general. There is always exceptions that are playing true with their customers, but they will be the first to be happy to have educated and demanding stoners as customers ^^
With the number of plants i’m culling per year, i will be hypocrite to say that i agree. It’s all about the catalog of expressions that you have between the ears. The more it’s filled, the less you’re loosing your time, you money and your space with specimens that you’re not searching. It’s harsh to say for the fresh blood, but it’s not the thing requiring super power often presented either.
It’s like books, when you don’t have read any one it’s always intensive at the begin. Then it become a matter of milliseconds after when you have already read the same kind of story, to recognize the book concerned. Fuck my analogy start to be strange, i’ve to finish this post lol
Yup, totally. So only the constancy pay and not giving up at the first failure. If you’re demotivated by your failure and don’t enjoy it, you have not failed your breeding plan. You’re just in the darkness to don’t have planned the next move. In breeding bad weed is equally useful than good weed, they both lead you to the right choices to make.
It’s the JH for me, and it’s not even my creation at all even if i prefer it tailored for my taste … so inbred and not F1. But my love come from the 90’s, so more than 20 years that i love to smoke it daily as much as i can. Fuck this, it sux to age.
For my own crosses it’s weird, one time i reached the end line I’m no longer interested even to smoke it lol
I appreciate it a lot, enjoy it … but i’m already thinking hard about the next strain to finish. Generally already started lol You know you’re a cooker chief, you have stuff to cook and blend … you cook then ^^ Another fucked analogy damn.
Breeding is very addictive, and when you reach your cruiser speed … you’re like a machine because you have already realized that you have to move your asses ASAP to make all the weeds you’re dreaming about lol But projects don’t stop to stack … that’s the problem. A great one.
Variations offer more different smokes than people not understand how they appreciate to inbred something, but like you say it’s not necessary to drive a single project at a time. I know also a couple of guys totally dedicated to an unique line they smoke since years … all ways lead to Rome.
When i’m forced to inbred/screen like the wind something, i save my ass by dominance tests. Like the Shiskaberry x Big Bud by example. It’s not integrated in the genpool, not a project and no plan … i will just launch the seeds like and enjoy it. I diversify the blunts, i reference in my brain the global resistance of a strain on another, i will be able to recognize the female expression used, discover a new potency profile, and be more prepared to attack the Shiska pure. One stone, 5 birds … and only with twos secondaries that have not annoyed my flow.
You have paid the seeds you’re making. With the bills of the grow and eventually the risks you took.
For me it have to be a win-win trade, just throwing seeds is not interesting. No one finally win in this operation. Now it’s just my opinion, and totally related with my infinite need to launch seeds lol
Asian, indian, south american cultivars are not my ground. Like absolutely not ^^
It’s not hierarchic or anything, it was just more practical for me to be focus on the african continent since the begin.
Now i don’t see a runt personally but a case of “nanism”. It can be genetical, epigenetic, the chlorophyll not responding well to the spectrum or the density, root waiting for a specific stimulation … many options are on the table. If you don’t test everything you can to trigger something, even if appear crazy … you will never know.
Breeding depressions are generally more expressing first with various variegations and fucked phyllotaxy (the plant losing its symetry fast and strongly). But cannabis, even hemp is a solid annual able to go very far without a hint of this kind of depression (the real one). It can trough two digits lines without showing anything but a herm or two something. The depression is human, you don’t live enough long to worry an entire specy with a decent work.
But selfing in chain like a robot can accelerate fast the first symptoms, to make a loop ^^ Like all other artificial pressures acting like a brutal time machine in fact and used like a method and not like a tool included in a method, ga3 it’s the same. A hammer without a hand is just iron and wood, a house will not suddenly rise from the dust in hammering the soil. Oh this one was pretty well fucked lol
Ignoring everything you have not made yourself is not specially a good calculation, we have a legacy and an history. Strains are just experience of others stacked for us, from the same fucking plant.
Now ignoring a factual proof that is not specially very unknown and singular … it become religious, not even a belief. Why not, i don’t judge. I’ve quoted Breeder Steve to push you to figure out how he done it, because you’re in the colors things. And he used the colors of the Blueberry to best backcross the SPG (by example), in killing everything colored by it.
There is a shit ton of others famous examples of what “you don’t believe”, entire catalog builded with it, specialized breeders … it’s not my way. I just give you a hint to don’t be ignored by educated stoners that can help you to grow stronger just with this kind of sentence
But you can open a subject on OG saying that the C99 don’t exist because you decided it wasn’t possible also, it will be a great moment for a lot of readers trust me. Just shoot me a message before, so i can make some pop corn and see it with my own eyes too
Damn, my dyslexia can’t keep up with these walls of text
Pz
This is so true for cannabis, people “think”, “believe” and have “philosophies”. Biology is physics at a higher level and you do now hear space x saying these things when they build rockets that can land on earth again. Nature doesn’t care what humans are thinking, it just does what it does. That’s why we humans can go to school and learn about WHAT it does and HOW it works. That doesn’t mean that school is the only place you can educate yourself about it. But breeding is a 100% scientific approach to modify plants to your needs.
Im with @Fuel, if you want to grow as a breeder or grower. You need to put all your biases to the side and listen to others while educate yourself to be able to see what is based on science and what is based on believes. Because if we don’t do that, all the best cultivars will come out of Labs full of white coats in 10 years and breeders will now understand why their cultivars are majorly subpar… Please wake up, I don’t want the future…
Hi all,this guy @LonelyOC has been of help and a very gentleman with my First reversal,also other GREAT OGers have offered their help too.
Also @Fuel and @crunkyeah did spend some words above.
Anyway,now I am starting truly to focus on my goal,for which I choose two Purple buds dominant trait autos,fems seeds,and want to obtain a 99% strain out of these which Will display Purple leaves or buds,Dark Purple.
Now,can this be achieved through fems only?
I have a couple seeds of Black Cream Auto and Red Poison auto both Sweet seeds.
Please educate me a Little.
I got a 80cmx80x170 tent and use Coco coir.
Thanks a lot of you will spend some time together here to help me.
Lat’s batch of seeds launched folks, can’t wait to try this sensi star repro, if ever it’s alive. So it sound like the end of my breeding-trolling for a while also ^^
99% is fairly close to the perfection, and it’s not something I’ve tasted yet ^^
I don’t know the SWS14/SWS04, if there are F1 or not, how the females were selected and from what. Mostly a guess-game for me.
If both are showing what you’re searching with stability, the goal can be consider as already accomplished.
In this context, most of the job will be to maintain the “auto” quality in the progeny with a backcross to some (let’s call it) “pure ruderalis”. And to bring back afterward the purple. In a kind of infinite loop, in dodging bullets (herms).
Basically popping all the seeds and being ready to spray Sts to the selected females,then the F1 Will be the result and I Need to select for those traits again popping as many as I can.
If the F1 are already 90% or more Purple I Just Need to self and make a lot of seeds.
Am I understanding It right?
Those seeds are already automatics so no Need to cross to ruderalis right?
At one point you have to experience it, then come back to share your results and your feedbacks with us.
I’m not a magician buddy, 75% of what i’m able to do is entirely dependent on what i’m already knowing on the lines i’m screening. I strictly don’t know the genetic material you will launch, and its making-of.
This first step is very important, you will need a ton of seeds of the original material for the further steps. To be able to explore options and eventually revert back an error. You can’t keep motherplants in veg.
You have a double-breeding constraint in your case :
maintaining/bring back the purple each time you maintain/bring back the “auto” inside.
maintaining/bring back the “auto” with a third line (pure ruderalis) each time you maintain/bring back the purple.
If not for finding recessive phenotypes what exactly is the purpose of selfing so many times?
It’s also a stark indication that this plant is now governed by currency. Whatever avenues generate the most currency are those that will be explored. Whatever methods that got cannabis to where it is today, those methods will be lost with time. We’re already seeing it in the long-flower sativas being replaced by modern hybrids. Why would a country who’s main export is cannabis, why would they only harvest 1 time per year when they could switch up genetics and now get 3-4 harvests a year? The currency is now the driving factor for moving plants forward. Yikes. 
, it remove fast the most annoying scories of the phenos : the free will ^^
We reap what we sow…
. And you’re asking the development of this entertaining digression to someone that restrict strictly his education (on this matter) to what he’s able to use with the hands and to transform it in something reliable. So be prevented, you can be burned in public place (just for the pleasure most of the time) if you quote my utilitarian shortcuts.
