First off, apologies if this has been discussed before. It’s the kind of thing that can be tricky to search for if you’re unaware of the correct terminology to inquiry.
My question is about recessive phenotypes of plants. I have 2 strains I want to combine. One is an IBL with a recessive leaf type. The other is an F1 of two parents which also have a highly recessive type.
The outcross will happen between the IBL and the F1. What are the differences if I do the cross like so:
IBL x F1
IBL x F2 (where I may have selected those recessive phenotypes)
IBL x F3 (where 75-80% of plants resemble the recessive parents)
IBL x F5 (100% of plants resemble original parents, mostly uniform)
IBL x IBL (extremely uniform parents from both sides)
Basically I want to know how many generations I need to in-breed the F1 to until I can expect to see the traits show up reliably in the F2 generation of the outcross. With my current understanding of breeding it would be nearly impossible to find a triple recessive phenotype in the F2 generation if you did the initial cross at [IBL x F1]. If you do the cross at [IBL x IBL] however it seems much more logical to find good specimen in the F2 generation.
Next, let’s change the equation as so:
F2 x F1
F2 x F2
F2 x F3
F2 x F5
F2 x IBL
What do the odds look like now? Is there any visual representation?
What are you thinking of crossing exactly? ABC x Freakshow or something? Some of these recessive leaf traits skip a generation… And/or follow the male and not the female… You might have better luck with specifics as there’s been some work on both those lines, as well as ducksfoot, right here on OG.
Haha, you had to ask. TLT recently released a line from a pearl-string Punto Rojo male, and the purple-Scorpion Lagkitan. I have in my possession 20 of those which I would like to work until I can ensure that 75% or more of the progeny exhibit the pearl-string bud type. I would assume that these F1 will exhibit the bud formation at F2 quite similarly to how the mutants express. It’s a recessive trait after all.
I will then take that mostly homogenous strain and breed it with Giant Pur Pur, which I have at F2 right now… but I could take it to F3 or F4 before doing this cross.
While I did initially ask for this reason… I think the topic of differences in offspring between F1xF1 vs F3xF3 vs IBLxIBL is still quite a valid topic of discussion. There has to be massive differences due to how traits get inherited along the way. I can’t be the only person breeding who would benefit from this information.
For example let’s say you have a strain like say… Skunk. If you have Skunk seeds at every filial generation ex. F1, F2, F3, F4, F5, etc… how will the Skunk seeds compare when outcrossing?
Skunk F1 x OG Kush F1 - likely to inherit mostly dominant traits
Skunk F2 x OG Kush F2 - could have tons of variation in the offspring
Skunk F3 x OG Kush F3 - likely to see bell-curve uniformity at F1 (closer to homogenous breeding)
Skunk IBL x OG Kush IBL - likely to see good uniformity throughout the breeding process, even at F2
Now, I don’t know any of this as fact. It’s just a summary of what I know about genetics as a layman. I’m sure someone educated on the matter may understand my query a bit more but that’s it in a nut shell. Also someone who’s bred cannabis for a good long time should be able to tell me a bit more. This information is typically behind a paywall for big retail breeders so I appreciate if anyone has the guts to share it with me.
Ehhem…. I think in your specific case you don’t need to worry about the frequency of any specific trait occuring in the progeny of a cross. Just breed, open pollination, and select for the trait you want.
I go so far as to conjecture that mendelian genetic theories and mapping of specific traits in cannabis DNA is used to isolate a VERY rare or unknown trait…and is basically only useful in a laboratory setting.
Here’s the issue. I have limited plant numbers. The Double Scorpion (DS) line has at LEAST 2 recessives traits I’m trying to breed for: pearl-string flowers and purple flowers. The GPP line has at LEAST 2 recessives: leaf type and red/pink stigmas. So you’re telling me to breed GPP F2 x DS F1 that I should be able to find an F2 which has all 4 recessive traits I’m looking for?
I won’t disagree with you on the practical application of Mendelian inheritance. This is very much the sort of thing that lab-work tries to explain. Real world application answers are essentially what I’m looking for anyways.
Simply put, I know that if I took each strain to IBL it’s vastly more likely to find the specimen I want to create. It may be entirely possible that I could take the strain to IBLxIBL and still not find specimen in the F2 generation that match my desires. Either way, can anyone prove the differences between progeny from F2xF2 and IBlxIBL?
I can say for certain you most likely will not get an F1 with your desired traits and would say F2 won’t have what you are looking for either. The key here is doin g your own selection, select the one witht the most desirable traits each generation cullin the one that aren’t up to snuff. There isn’t really any recipe for instant success in cannabis brreeding UNLESS you start with absolutely stellar genetics…but that is another story.
Take Haze for instance…and all cannabis in general, starting with a small relatively uniform population, vast numbers of diverse strains have been created. The real key is patience and diligence, keeping in mind your goals etc.
You are on track with this! IBL each line, crafting it as you desire. When you do the cross, there will be a much higher chance of “instant” verifiable results.
Edit: not raining on you parade, but I think it should be said at least for postarity sake: “There are lots of heirlooms out their to work through. Don’t think you always need to breed to get what you want. Buy some heirlooms and work through them, doing minor selections. You will be pleased with your results and the process is rewarding. Slower pace…enjoy what you do!”
One bit more…. You can outcross and then select solely for ONE specific trait. Then mold a strain so that the trait is dominant…then you can recombine the 4 strains into one line with alll the desired traits. This take a long time though. Your best bet is to cross and select or ibl cross and select. Long term (outcross) your results will be closer to your goal and short term there will be more luck involved and your ability to judge what each plant will pas on to its progeny.
I feel like I have absolutely stellar genetics but that is another story indeed.
No worries! I have a lot of good genetics in my seed vault to work with. The only thing I’m lacking on are pure ruderalis seeds; only have a vial of those.
Yeah that’s the whole problem. If I work something too long I’m not giving all the other wonderful plants a chance. If I work it too quickly I risk not ending up with a final plant that I’m happy with. With some of these plants if I get 50% of what I want I’ll be happy. I’m guessing that I may be able to cut a corner and breed at the F3 level if I can get F3 progeny from each line which mostly have the traits I want. I feel like taking each to F5 is going to take far too long, but F3 I could get behind depending on what the F2 parents look like. Add in the fact that the sativa in question takes on average around 32 weeks per life cycle… I’ll be busy for a few years just getting each line to F3 for the outcross.
Ya got me thinking if I should begin with Duckweb IBL x Black Rose IBL before moving onto some of the other strains. The Black Rose I have are only about 3 weeks old. I could still sprout some Duckweb for breeding. Hmm…
If the ibl shows mostly string pearl phenos, its already where it needs to be.
For the second ingredient, id grow the f1, identify one/those that show the trait/s im looking for and id self it/them or go to f2. The f2s might be all over the place or show distinct phenos, id try to find at least one within parameters and backcross it to the f1 to reinforce the traits. Or grow the s1 and mate the chosen one to the ibl
Make the cross.
Ibl x f2bc1
Or
Ibl x f1s1
Grow some, check ratios, make f2s.
With hard pressure the f3s could be it.
With physical traits you wont have to go through the lenghty flowering phase everytime. You could basically cull most within a month of flower.
Also purple is the simplest trait here and is easily reintroduced if kicked to the curb while fixing more complex traits.
Okay, so you have an F1 line with two traits you want. And a different F2 line with 2 other traits you want. And you want the F1 line to hit 75%+ same flower type.
The latter will most likely require taking the line to F3 at the very least as it should segregate at the F2. Find two like F2’s and hopefully get lucky on the F3’s being what you want. If not, that should tell you something about how that trait works, how it combines with whatever pair you chose.
If you just want a line that has all 4 traits from those two lines… You could probably do so at any stage as long as both parents have the 2 respective traits you want. Any variance will solely be due to what makes those 4 particular traits show up and not necessarily how inbred the two lines are. If those 4 traits are heterozygous dominant it may be pretty easy. That first F1 cross of the two lines will yield plants with all 4 traits without having to do anything else. Doesn’t matter if it’s F1 x F1 or IBL x IBL. If even one of those traits are recessive, double recessive, co-dominant… you’re likely going to need to put in some more work beyond the F1 cross.
If you ran out both lines to IBL beforehand, you should already know how those traits combine and form and how much work might be involved in crossing them to make something new with all 4 traits. But those plants being IBL won’t necessarily make the cross any more stable or better than if you did it when you just had f1 and f2.
Thanks for the responses! Always get my brain wheels turning…
Actually the strain in question is not an IBL and is F1. I know I need to work it to at least F2 to find those pearl string phenos. Even then it’s a long shot to find all the best qualities within the line.
Yeah idk that’s tough for me. I understand that breeding plants can be ruthless sometimes just like raising livestock. Sacrifices must be made for the end goal. I have a hard time removing plants which seem good to me, especially so when the seeds are expensive as these were. Maybe that’s something I’ll have to learn along the way…
Things with me can never be simple. In addition to all this there’s other traits hidden within each line that I wouldn’t mind separating for different projects. For example… let’s say I find two F2 females with pearl strings, as well as two F2 males. One of each is purple, and the other isn’t. I would actually LIKE to split the phenos apart and work them more selectively. I’ve also heard there’s a recessive in the Punto Rojo line which throws out lime green/yellow pistils. I’ve never seen one of those before so you can bet your bottom dollar if I found one in my progeny that I would not be able to let it go. I would have to breed it with something.
To be 100% honest purple colored buds are probably the lowest desired trait on the totem pole if you will. I’m much more interested in different colored stigmas, red/purple/black stems, unique leaf types, etc. Basically all the traits you rarely see, I want them all. In one plant. At the same time. No pressure right? (I fully realize there is no holy grail plant)
Perfect response for what I was asking. Thank you. In all my analytical thoughts, I hadn’t considered what I will learn along the way. I was looking at everything on paper and forgetting that the plants will show me the way if I let them.
By work beyond the F1 cross how do you mean that? I realize that the outcrossed plant will need to be worked to at least F3 as well. If you mean I may need to do some additional backcrossing or selfing to isolate phenos, I’m not sure I understand. If all the F1 have the traits from both sides, it’s just a matter of finding plants which EXPRESS those traits. I was hoping to use selective breeding in a way where I can reduce the sheer randomness of it all. I understand I will be sorting through a lot of F2s in my future, but I don’t want to be going through 10,000 plants to find 2 plants to continue the line.
I hadn’t even considered those traits being co-dominant. That’s a whole different rabbit hole. No wonder they say “just cross the damn plants” because one can get lost in the science of it.
Thanks for pointing this out. Even if I have the IBLs (after 5-6 yrs of work) they may still not combine right due to co-dominant traits and everything.
Hmm… Will I learn enough from line-breeding each strain to know how it will breed? I would think the only way I will know what breeds true is by breeding them to a different strain. If you have all these traits which show up in line-breeding those traits may appear with this strain, but outcrossed it may look entirely different.
Oh yeah bro and seriously!!! If you are breeding please use Botanicare! You definitely WILL NOT regret it…and a little Bud Candy for your head stash, !
You might want to S1 a couple of those string pearl phenos. That will tell you a lot about what is genetically “inside” the plant, and if she doesn’t breed true for the trait itself it’s very possible one of her S1’s would.
I understand some packs of seeds arent cost friendly, but i am not advising ruthlessly culling plants the first go around. Step 1, if starting with few seeds, will always be to do a seed increase. Start culling shamelessly once numbers permit it, and only then.
Now about methodology. When growing plants, the rate at which you unliven them is a spectrum… from growing every cut 4 times, dialing, then making a decision to popping 1000 and killing 900 the first two weeks. Capiche?
Which serves which purpose at which time or step in a project is no secret.
I like to think im hyper orgazined and know a thing or two about plants, and of course… was never afraid to run numbers. What youre talking about is exactly what i tried to do with bog lifesaver. Many phenos, many outliers. For the home grower, this is far from practical. Too many lines, too many nuances.
Make 10000 f2s and take it one line at a time. Dont worry the other phenos will show again.
S1 seeds should in theory give progeny with the recessive trait at a 25% chance. I would rather make the F2s over making S1 seeds because I don’t have to do any selfing on them. I can just let the F1 males pollinate the F1 females. Also, from a genetic standpoint with the F2 line I should get the most variation. I will need it if I’m going to find some particularly good specimen to continue to F3. It’s hunting through them all which may prove fruitfully painful. TLT claims some of the phenos can appear in F1 but I’m highly skeptical. None of the photos I’ve seen have made me believe it shows up in F1, but I’m so grateful they were able to find both a male and female to make this special unique line.
Yeah nothing like a challenge to keep a guy on his feet! This is just one of the 5 main projects I have for 2023 and 2024. I have a unique mutant cross for 5 unique mutants: Freakshow, Bastard, Mnogolistka(Multileaf), Lanceolate, and Variegated-webbed. Each one will need to be taken to F2. Enough to keep me busy for years
I feel ya. I am a hobby grower so my numbers are limited. I need to figure out how to be more organized. Cheers.
What if I can only do say 10 at a time? That’s where I was hoping to be smart and use superior breeding techniques. But it seems those techniques have yet to be found! Definitely will try to use the KISS method either way.
Well my best advice is to relax, drink a beer and think about where you would want this line to be in 10-15 years. Let’s say you perfect it in the next couple year, hypothetically, will it still be around or will it be what you want in a decade?
I get what you mean, but you can also think of selfing as a diagnostic strategy that helps to indicate which F1’s are even worth breeding to begin with. You can still use a male to take the line to F2 with a select female in the long run, but “cracking open” a couple plants to look inside might cost a few weeks, but ultimately could keep you from having to backtrack to this point a year or more from now when a pure “guesswork” selection proves to have sent the project sideways.
Nothing wrong with 1:1 line breeding, it’s a long venerable and very productive tradition, but selfing can be a handy tool along the way, especially when numbers are limited.
The 10000 f2s is an arbitrary number, make enough to get you through your project. Some projects I started with as little as 200 f2s. 100 for back up, grew 2 batches of 50. Thats it lol
Other stuff i made 100k++, like my skunk line, since its a pain to work with, some hermies, some runts, smell only shows 1/20 plants. So it called for more stock.
Usually early on in a project you dont need to grow that many since youll be selecting for single traits. Growing many plants is only needed after a couple years when you want plants with all 6 traits you selected to come together.
I used to breed in a 12’x24’ room, now i do my selection and seed increases in a 4x2 (i can fit up to 64plants, usually run 45-50) and run numbers outdoors, take cuts and do the next generation seed run inside if its not possible outside.
All in all, both ways get me to where i want to be, within similar time frame.
@Vesti - The problem I have with “cracking open” a few F1s is that these are landrace sativas. They don’t just germinate and ready to go like these modern plants are. Additionally, once the pearl-string pheno is found it’s possible to line-breed those phenos into stability. It doesn’t matter if it’s an F2 or an S1. The thing is, you can take it to IBL, you can self it 3 times, you can do all kinds of things. When I outcross it finally, that’s when I’ll be able to observe how it breeds.
From my understanding part of the magic of the S1 generation is the same allele distribution that occurs at F2. It’s literally the same exact process (as far as we know). Since selfing is traditionally done with stable females, I look at the selfing process as an additional cost in the production of the end product (my own strain). I would rather go with nature and let the plants lead the way than force a girl to produce pollen and get a tiny amount of seeds, compared to a traditional F1 male/female pairing. Whatever consistency is gained from the S1 seeds I would rather find in F2 specimen which have alleles generated from nature’s process.
In this specific case I would argue that if I’m looking for recessive traits from both parental lines, selfing would only isolate specific phenotypes within those lines. The F2 generation would be a bit more ‘open’ if that makes sense. While it isn’t going to be fun hunting those F2 for that flower type (since you have to flower them out to find them) I won’t mind outcrossing it at all. Once I have the ability to have mutant leaf types in the progeny it’s just a simple matter of culling the 75% non-mutants and just hunt the mutants for those flower types. If I get lucky, hooray! If not then I can backcross, self, and all kinds of crazy things.
Sorry to be so long winded but everything I’ve seen able selfing I just don’t understand the purpose of it. I would rather use males like nature intended. Herms are a rabbit hole I don’t have enough understanding of to comment on.
@Mithridate - I think the biggest concern for me isn’t going through all those F2 seeds, because I can remove 75% of them right off the bat. The biggest concern is how do I know my selections at F1 will be good? I have zero breeding experience so I’m just wingin’ it.
I understand that. I grew out the Lagkitan last summer and the purple scorpion pheno shows up about 1 in 20 females. I had 20 seeds and did not manage to find one. When it’s extremely recessive larger seed numbers are needed. It’s one problem I had hoped to solve by intelligent breeding.
At F1 I will be open pollinating and F2 I’ll just be looking for recessives so it shouldn’t be too difficult. F3 generation is where I will pick the plants which will be used for the mutant outcross. If I want to get really savvy maybe I’ll try backcrossing and stuff like that. I do like the idea of a backcross thrown in there somewhere but maybe it won’t be necessary.
Let me guess, you flower freshly rooted clones in small but deep pots shortly after they’re big enough to plant? I have like 12 plants in my 4x2 (veg only) and I think that’s pushing it, and I even have a vertical setup.
The problem with the mutants and doing something like this is that my mutants are all different. GPP is a monster. It would be quite difficult to flower 2 of them in a 4x2, even if flowered right after rooting. You’d have to have a crazy scrog or some LST to keep it with a manageable height. Then if you look at ABC it’s really short but super bushy. You don’t really want to be cramming them in close to each other because then each one gets no air flow. They’re dense little bushes that need plenty of their own room even though they’re small.
I think to myself all the cool things I could accomplish with a room that large. Holy smokes. I have like 32 sq ft of growing indoors. Outdoors sky is the limit, but keeping the plants private is a big concern. Mutants are a cool for that. Only really have to worry about them for like 8-10 weeks of the year.
If you had full-auto plants, very large ones, and very unstable genetics would you still be able to manage flowering 45-50 plants in your 4x2? Sounds like a dialed system with known genetics (known in that you know how to grow them well).
Thats the magic of it, you dont do any selection in the f1. Simply because we dont know what each of the f1 will pass on to progeny.
Theoretical breeding is just that. Once you grow a first round youll know if for exemple you want more of this and less of that, then which method to use will become evident.
Generally, 1/20 is about as rare a trait youd look for. Rarer than that (ie my melon lifesaver cut 1/350)
It becomes difficult to make any progress. (Now id need a matching male, maybe 1:350 was great luck and the real ratio is 1:10000. Let me tell you im not looking for that male lol)
All/most from seeds(50 from seeds and a dozen cuts this run) 8 trays of 8 5"pots. I give them enough veg for them to fill their pots with roots and flip.
Root restrictions help to reduce stretch, so does low relative humidity.
Some will need to be topped, some to have their limbs braided etc i try to force them to stay winthin their pots footprint.
I cant fit 50 very large plants in a 4x2… im “good” just not “that good” lol
TLT recently released a line from a pearl-string Punto Rojo male, and the purple-Scorpion Lagkitan. I have in my possession 20 of those which I would like to work until I can ensure that 75% or more of the progeny exhibit the pearl-string bud type. I would assume that these F1 will exhibit the bud formation at F2 quite similarly to how the mutants express. It’s a recessive trait after all.
. I think in your specific case you don’t need to worry about the frequency of any specific trait occuring in the progeny of a cross. Just breed, open pollination, and select for the trait you want.
The Black Rose I have are only about 3 weeks old. I could still sprout some Duckweb for breeding. Hmm…
(I fully realize there is no holy grail plant)