Precisely what I was thinking about this thread. Reversing is a tool like many others in the breeder’s toolbox, and one can use it when it suits the situation and more importantly, the objectives. It doesn’t solve everything by itself.
I second Fuel (mostly) on their statement regarding nowadays breeding, or breeding techniques/strategies in general. Maybe that’s because my fiber is close (hardcore-punk) but I don’t trust the market though, I’m more in the anarchist mindest 
Sorry to post here guys,I Ve been through the text walls,and,as an auto fem only grower,I wanted to ask 3 things:
1What are your thoughts on autos for a tiny project/selection of a specific trait such as colors
2What are your thoughts on having to use only autos,do I Need to buy some “regular” seeds to select males too?
3My space Is a 80cm80cm170height.I use Coco coir and could fit a good Number of solo cups/Little pots with automatic feeding inside for a very personal breeding project.What would you do with this setup?My main goal Is achieve a stable Purple color and having lot of autos “feminized”.
Thanks and Sorry to interrupt your discussion
PS:I already completed a seedrun and crossed successfully two autos with STS,so this part of the job Is nailed
Yep I believe it buddy.
Yep. I like to refer that as the “Gool ol’ boys club”…only those wealthy participants can participate in the B2B trade. In the U.S. one has to be licensed and insured up the wazoo to be able to participate in the retail market. Maybe other countries are different but since currency is driving factor I doubt it.
See, I don’t care about mutagen factors from artificial means. Nature doesn’t do it so I won’t either. I am concerned with mutagens that occur naturally, and are repeatable. To me this doesn’t make it a ‘mutation’ it’s a ‘trait’. As such I can breed for it. As a laymen who only uses observable criteria I don’t really want mutations I want genetic diversity. I want to choose the phenos which express the way I want, and disregard the rest. Isn’t that what everyone else is doing too?
I can agree with this statement. The important bit is context… what we’re trying to do. When someone says, let’s breed cannabis now without using males… without any context my brain says… that’s just as wrong as saying we can remove men from humanity and mankind will survive…
Sure it’s an apples to oranges comparison but it still seems silly to me.
I don’t understand this context. To me, such a female is one in the same. It’s the rare gem in the bunch. It’s the prized trophy of a search well hunted. How many breeders are hunting through thousands of the same genotype of plant for that one special gem? It seems to me that rather than look for those ‘gems’ the goal of the breeding plan is to bring every individual specimen into a realm of ‘potent’ or ‘good’ so that one doesn’t concern themselves with the gem when the average is good. They want each fem seed to produce roughly the same plant every time. The variance in height, flowering times, etc are detrimental because of the customer base that’s purchasing the seeds. Most people don’t have use for a 25 ft strain (which no doubt has some superior growth traits) but they want something that’s going to be quick to yield and provide the blunt at the end.
Maybe in a different place. Nothing to fight here except for time. My colors have been stained by the blood of the innocent, so I fight for the living instead the dead. My government has become too corrupt to support, so I actively work to change it every day. While I do idolize the mindset this comes from, here you’re just getting yourself all jacked up for nothing. Pride isn’t what it used to be… now it comes with many colors…
No offense taken. It might be naive but isn’t it more of the same? If weed is a currency and currency is currency, the ambient hasn’t changed at all. Supply and demand still applies.
Thank the Lord he gifted me a green thumb! I’m more fascinated by the plant than the blunt… but the blunts are a nice reward for taking care of my plants. 
We reap what we sow…
Here they’ve never been a part of the market. Never. I had to grow them myself. Additionally my climate is too far north for a sativa. So for some, it’s an expensive commodity if you have the money. For me, no amount of money can grant me access. The only access I get is through overpriced seeds. You know what? It’s better for me to pay ~$400 for a single landrace cultivar than try to find buds sourced from the place. I could spend tens of thousands, and in some places end up in prison. My love for the plant is big, but not life ending big.
Thanks for linking the breeding references! I will definitely check them out when my brain is cooling down from my other studies. 
This is where we fundamentally part ways. Duckfoot and Freakshow are just two of such ‘exploits’. There’s also Australian Bastard Cannabis, Giant Pur Pur, and Mnogolistka.
ABC and Freakshow get a bad rep because they’re a bit slow to veg. As far as I’m concerned each of these mutant varieties has good potential. After being released and having the public work Freakshow into their own hybrids I can easily say that the problems experienced from this ‘mutation’ are already starting to be worked out by the public. I’ve seen ABC specimen over 3 meters tall. I’ve seen Freakshows with buds that regular strains only dream of. Whatever detriments the mutations hold, can be fixed by breeding; I am convinced.
Again we go back to context. What we all are seeking.
You’re right, it’s exactly the same process.
The mutation isn’t something to be engineered it’s a trait found within the populations. It’s all driven by genetics. By reverse engineering are you meaning selfing those recessive expressing specimen to ‘explore the genotype’? If so I fail to see how this is helping isolate those phenotypes. Sure you can find more female specimen that display a variety of traits within that “Freakshow” type but if I want to isolate that phenotype in seed form I can only do it by taking recessive F2s and breeding them together. The resulting F3 generation (in nearly all mutations I’ve seen) lead to 100% of the progeny having the leaf type. It’s repeatable and such in my opinion a trait and not a mutation.
You’re missing the point I was trying to make. A skunk and a white widow will have many many traits that look the same. They will both be frosty, both smelly, and generally probably have good growth traits. Internode distance, flower density/size, etc… What makes them unique from each other is the recessive traits they express. In this example the recessive trait may be resin content for White widow. Skunk may be recessive for smell, as it’s a lot smellier than white widow. Bottom line, if I want any of the dominant traits from either strain, a simple F1 outcross would show me the dominant traits that both strains have. Does this make sense now?
Ah here is the problem. That plant that you want to stabilize… it hasn’t been birthed yet. There isn’t a plant with all of those combined traits. If there was we would know about it. Been on the internet long enough to know if there’s plants with any of these traits they’re all recessive. Being recessive means finding all of them in one plant is not only impractical it’s nonsense. Once-in-a-line becomes no different than hitting the lottery. I would rather not play that game.
Ah well this is where it gets fun! I must digress from the mutants and now focus on landrace. As mentioned if I want to try a sativa I must grow it out. They’re never available here; never. So I found a line which must be highly inbred because it comes from a place where cannabis carries the death penalty. It’s also known on the internet to be a herm-only line. I’ve selected a Malawi male to breed with this sativa (Sumatra Banda Aceh) to hopefully improve the sexual stability of the cross, while maintaining all of the wonderful sativa-only qualities. Most people wouldn’t dare touch a herm-only strain but I look at the opportunity to learn and grow as more powerful than what that individual line can teach me. It’s a stepping stone for me to learn from. If I started with fully stable genetics, what advantage would that have? I don’t see any myself…
That’s why I’m really only concerned with the leaf type. If I get all kinds of other nifty recessive traits that’s just a bonus.
I’m not sure what the Vic High cult is so I’m curious, what is the ideology here?
Yeah for me it’s not finding that 1:10,000 special lady. I’m more focused about selecting the right F2 partners so that when I germinate the F3s, all are mutant-leaf.
I think this is why selfing and feminizing in general have confused me so much. With my context trying to use it is like trying to do construction framing with a wrench. Like wtf mate? 
Ok so within this new genotype you’ve isolated what are you looking to find in the progeny? You can’t isolate any of it unless you do further in-breeding on the line. If this is the goal, fine…but there will be a point where you can’t continue a line anymore due to inbreeding depression.
Am I missing something here?
I will have to disagree on this stance then. I don’t think it’s possible to protect a recessive trait in an outcross. Even with a fair paycheck we’re talking about breaking inheritance. If we can do that I can guarantee it’s in a lab somewhere, not in nature. I’m only concerned with what nature can provide. It’s provided for humans for our existence on this planet throughout time. A tried and true method we’re botching badly. My two cents.
My thoughts are… sounds difficult. If you do achieve it, make sure you make tens of thousands of seeds. Several are out there, but as FEM autos you know there’s a finite supply.
There are auto-males too. If you wanted to have regular seeds and make your own autos that would be a good avenue. A non-auto male will give you a mixed bag in the progeny, which will then need to be worked and selected in order to get the auto trait to express.
Myself, I would go with a less is more attitude. Since you’re using fems, pack in there only what you feel will give the best results. I know autos can be very particular in what they like and need. Trying to force more in there may actually harm your yields if each doesn’t have what it wants. A little out of my wheelhouse though, sorry I can’t be more helpful.
Congratulations on your completed seed run and I wish you the best! And FYI everyone is part of the conversation so you’re not interupting! We’re all here to learn
Thank you so much @crunkyeah
What I understood:
Not using too much plants
Start from a genetic that should have the traits I search because autos are not to be revegged and are a thinking bomb.
Should save Tons of seeds if I Will succeed.
Now,my cross intended to accomplish Purple buds or leaves,selecting 2 strains that have this in theyr gene pool.Moms also didn’t show Purple.
I planted 6 of those F1 and none has given me Purple ( until the very end of ripening but i think because of the senescense) and so I ask myself:what should I do with this F1 progeny?Pop more seeds or cross some sisters with STS?
Next seeds launched, I’ve to stop at one point. Maybe i will add some sensi star tommorow, just to have a full tray for the fun of the completion. Cross the fingers for me, they are pretty much old and in bad state.
The need for seeds is mostly if something attract you, or if it’s heavily in the color you’re searching. The plan look clear in your head, and you known how to use STS. Everything is there to offer you the experience you searching.
I will buy a Shiva Shanti II, and sog it from seeds very dense (after the initial fast repro on two or three pairing) like a maniac to make it highly destructive and tasty. More easy, more fast, more strong, more vigorous, more options, no useless genetic maintenance. This strain or any other cheap classic able to make a dense SOG. But it’s just me ^^
Punks are the soul of the world ^^
Not really this kind of club in EU, almost all social classes are represented. Reliable, safe and constant hands are too rares to be elitist. This is not a game where you can hit&run also, it imply a lot of things here.
A mutation can express a visible trait, an invisible trait, stay latent … it’s not so binary. If you have the rosetta stone of this leaf shape, just rush then.
I will not speak for the others but for me at least, no. I’m just reading the plants constantly, and i adapt what they say to my goals. Sometimes even at the last minutes of the dead line ^^ Sometimes also they just say nothing, and it become something to take in count.
Just the concept of removing arbitrary a whole expression of the life, in the life itself is disturbing for me ^^
But it permit to introduce quickly a funny detail i like with cannabis : the males carry the whole datas for the male’s progeny and the female’s progeny. Even those not sexually linked. The female, not ^^ Their DNA is partial.
In humans it’s the reverse, the male’s DNA is partial ^^ Fast digression for the fun of this analogy.
My reform of your sentence in a “once-in-a-whole-line female” was more to express how look like a long term hunt among many strains explored, many parralel line of the same strain explored and so on … an infinite loop of sweet memories.
And it’s not so complicated to drive, even with a limited space. With a good planning, a structured methodology and a good density … you can screen a lot. And it can be as ghetto than this …
Pretty much yes, if the averages of the next generation is not increasing then the selection was technically failed. Now if the super-pheno found in this generation was the ultimate goal to close the project, it’s a success. But you know, one time you see it’s possible to generate this pheno … it’s hard to don’t search what the fuck you missed to make them all like this ^^
They don’t know what they miss then ^^ The day they will realize it, be ready and take your cut 
My very first pure sativa was acclimatized to alps peaks directly, in guerrilla growing. She often finished the feets in the snow. You can be amazed on how they can perform in nordic lattitudes one time they have understood wtf was going on.
Sometimes it’s better to give up and to switch on another line, but yes with enough time and constancy almost everything is possible with this annual and it never stop to amaze me.
I’ve made the necessary to no longer have to self specimens, so i just don’t ^^
It’s more to understand the genesis of one expression i’m facing, and for this I have to understand how it segregate more than how I can maintain it. It’s like diving in the guts of the dynamics of the strain, it’s fascinating even if you find nothing. It’s always something to use later for a similar case or pattern.
Not to isolate but to generate, and more tailored if possible of course ^^
You can also operate multiple parallel backcrosses, generate your own freakshow … there is many ways. Now it’s really not in my interests in breeding, better to shoot a contact to those involved in these projects. Wallyduck is here i saw lastly, OG still OG ;o)
Both equally frosty : damn no.
Both equally smelly : hell no.
Both good growth traits : yes, even in the resistances, but totally opposites in all.
Same internodal space : hell no.
Same flower density : no way ^^
It’s also why i repeat in loop all over OG that knowing its classics is very important.
Both are pretty much stable and very predictable in outcrosses, what is making them uniques is the addition of all their specificities and how distant they are from each other for the said specificities.
No but your interest is just not there, what’s wrong with that. Nothing. We have all our own priorities.
I don’t say no to a good blunt of SK#1 x WW by the way, it’s the kind of funky ambivalent smoke i’m liking ^^ Let’s call it “pre-60 SK#51 Area nobody cut x Super White Berner original” to push the youth to taste it.
Totally the game i like to play ^^ Taking the time to prepare the right genetic materials, then shock them like a particle collider. Hell yeah. But it’s not lottery, it’s years. It’s just that i don’t give a damn fuck about the colors in general, at all.
The error was to don’t screen your stuff before making the hybrid, because the goal was the same : reducing the herm dynamic. Better to screen before a F1 in general.
Having screened the Sumatra for others. Even if it’s an old fashioned etiquette, i still believe in its proven utility today.
I’ve posted some walls of texte there too, but the concept is clearly exposed.
Yes a few that i can’t really enumerate on the fly, you can find in the Vic High topic a bunch of detailed leads expanding a bit more the problematic.
On the inbreeding depression, there is no limit but the skills. What we call in our stoned world the “inbreeding depression” is mostly an human problematic ignoring totally by example the industry of hemp (the real one) that don’t pass its time to debate on who have the real cut to sell in no stabilized seeds version ^^ .
But it’s a Darwinian funnel, the more you push the generation … the more you have to be ready and able to set safe strategies and accurate pheno tracking. Errors are far more dramatic with a two digits IBL than with a cascading poly-hybrid F1, the margin is mechanically more tight.
Breeder Steve disagree by known facts (releases), that i had the opportunity to inbred during two decades in bonus ^^ And i’m at the point do it again for the fun by the magic of OG. It’s really a mysterious place where strings theories sometimes apply 
The reverse, the most you can.
Breeding eat a shit ton of seeds. So first establish a strategy that feed the ogre.
Second, evaluate what the fuck is going on with the purple coloration : make a ratio with enough plants (50 at least, that you can multiply by two to make a %). You’re not in the obligation to launch 50 at a time, you can launch multiple batchs of 10 (by example). It’s just more long.
Why not just cull early everything not purple simply. Do you figure out how many seedling to kill you can fit in your space ? I don’t think ^^ Screen the shit out lol, take notes and make ratios. So you can evaluate first if the said cross is worst the ride (over 50% purple) or just a bad choice of genetic material (below 50%).
It will be a good start ^^ Unleash the hell, stop your brain’s juice.
Best wishes for your old beans buddy! Looks like you know what you’re doing so I have faith you’ll find success. Maybe not 100% but nothing is perfect anyways…
Ah well I’m glad at least in other parts of the globe cannabis is treated a little differently. Here in the US it seems it’s all about the most hype strain and most THC content. I looked into getting into retail with the genetics I have and just applying for licenses a business is going to spend $200k to get established. That’s also assuming a license is granted after all those fees… of course nothing is guaranteed and the fees are all non-refundable, go figure…
Also on top of that are extremely strict quality control standards, and all kinds of red tape which can normally be bypassed with enough paid fees. It’s a rich person’s game here, unless you want to be a hobby grower and grow at home. Pretty much every ‘legal’ state is this way; it’s all become about corporate profit and what profits the shareholders are experiencing. Business has taken over and now the plant is just a commodity no different than Coca-Cola… used to be medicine capable of curing diseases worldwide but now it’s the same as a pack of cigs or a pack of beer… sad…
Can you expand on this a little? I’ve never read material about ‘partial’ DNA. So you’re saying the males carry all the DNA for both sexes but the females are only partial to what they express? So males have ‘all the genes’ and females just select from the male’s genetic pool? Really fascinating concept to me that I’ve never heard before. I’d be delighted to read more about it. Still haven’t really looked into the links ya shared though… I will before my next post
While I get where you’re coming from where you just adapt your plant counts to fit into the space you have available this isn’t exactly what I meant to say. There are so many good cannabis lines these days that you can grow most any plant line and have something decent to smoke. I’m referring to those special females which are found. 98% of hobby growers will never hunt a line to find those special females. We just germinate what we can, and work with what we can. If we think there’s something better out there we’ll just try a different strain. There’s too many ‘good’ strains available for people to pheno hunt for those rare females. It’s infinitely easier to just sprout another breeder’s beans than try to sort through 10,000 crap plants to find the one good one, ya feel me? It’s about the path of least resistance.
Heh… no way am I sharing. They can buy my seeds and grow their own. No way am I selling any flowers that took me half a year to grow. Sorry not sorry.
I think this statement really solidifies to me your outlook on selfing. Correct me if I’m wrong but it seems like you will use selfing to explore a line for informational purposes… how certain genes express, etc. It doesn’t seem like you have intentions to work the self’d lines it’s more along the lines of providing you information than you then can take the ‘main’ generation and work that accordingly?
If so, I like this ideology. It gives you information without forcing you into a self-breeding program.
I like the thought and that would certainly be the most steadfast approach. However I do not intend on making profit on another man’s work. If I can take 2 unique lines and create my own blended line, to me that’s a new unique product, and such I don’t have karmic guilt over stealing another man’s work. If I backcross to a special plant someone else made, they deserve the credit not me. If I make my own line from P1 and P2 well… not only are the F1s unique but so are my F2s.
Basically with a backcross you’re still leaning on the original breeder’s genetics, and I want to create new ones.
Hmm, very interesting. Can you explain the differences side-by-side? If I asked a 5 yr old the differences between what skunk looks like and what white widow looks like, could a 5 yr old tell me the differences? As someone with a trained eye, you see things other do not because they lack the experience you do. Sometimes I think we get a bit too subjective when it comes to the scale at which we judge cannabis. Most modern strains I’ve seen all look the same.
A 5 yr old can look at my mutants and see they are different. It’s not a ‘spectrum’ of differences like your are. It’s an apples to oranges difference. My Drunken Bastard’s flowers look entirely different than my Freaks. Resin content can very as different strains have different lengths of resin glands. Some are really short and some stick out like crazy hair.
I guess in some way I’m similar. I would take P1 and P2 to F2 and then hunt the F2s like crazy rather than start a backcrossing/selfing breeding program. It is lottery if you don’t intend on going through every last plant you can. It’s nice to say it’s just a matter of time but is it? Can you keep smoking the same F1 cross you made 20 years ago? I like variety so I would rather not just work 1 cross. Even if I do find a lot of variety in the F2 generation by F3 or F4 you’re starting to really blend both strains together well, which leads to most plants being similar to their siblings.
Ah man… that’s such a refreshing statement to read. It’s very old fashioned, and very rare to see in today’s world. I wish I could share in that belief but on my end it’s impossible for me to think about gifting seeds I paid good money for. Having no friends and being constantly pushed by the system to ‘make more money’ it leaves me with a bitter taste for sharing seeds.
I’ll have to look into the Vic High thing a little more before I’m not sure I understand the ideologies behind it.
I have to disagree, because of this Sumatran. Check this out:
See the little one? My first landrace runt! Is it a runt though? Who knows… according to everything I can read about Indonesian cannabis (since it’s death penalty illegal) is there is absolutely no outside influence from foreign strains. Looking at various things throughout time it seems cannabis has been ‘on the move’ around the world since the 1920s. Can we realistically estimate that the Indo strain may be 50+ years old? with no outside influence in genetics?
If so, can we explain how every seed germinated in the same window, how every seed got the same dirt, same clover seed planted, same environment. Yet one of the 6 is small. A small landrace sativa??
I would love to see it! Won’t believe it until I do When you can take a P1 recessive and make an F1 recessive from it, I’ll start seeing things your way.
There’s so many beautiful music instruments, would be a shame to not try them all.
Sometimes you just gotta stick to something and rock the f out of it bruh
update : fortunately and unfortunately ^^
Let’s lit some Jack Herer and talk breeding ^^
Nothing new on the sprouter, 8 days on the first batch of seeds to yesterday for the last ^^ Nothing dramatic for now, i let me around one month and a couple of special soups to declare them losted for good. But i can’t just throw them in the trashcan, i will burry them in the garden. It’s psychological, kind of symbolic too.
It helped me to realize that if i was losting the Zamal x Ghanna, it will create a psychological hole. And if i consider it, it make me feel that i’ve to bring back some africaans in the new genpool. Without launching these seeds and letting them dry more, my brain will obliterate this equation.
These seeds was stored mostly because it wasn’t possible to decently include them in a trade last year with their bad state (found on a forgiven drawer lol), not considered as breeding materials already. But just the fact to have them … it biased viciously my awareness of the need/want of the actual choices. How silly is a psychology of a stoner sometimes. I was at the beach today, nice waves and all. Tomorrow i will launch the last batch (Sensi Star) to clean my fucked brain from this old stock.
Finally the first seeds of the year, after 6 months of nightmare to screen one of the most misunderstood strain of the Sensi catalog, the Big Bud. You can throw a shitstorm, i’m used lol But take care, if you don’t give aside details only a BB’s grower can know … i will catalog you as a nerd and not a weed nerd
This one is kind of multi-layered. The two lowest secondaries were pollinated with the Shishkaberry pollen of @SHSC-1 who, last month, changed fairly my mind on the use of dryed/freezed pollen. I’m still a “fresh pollen” defender, but he put some water in my wine by the facts since. The remaining buds of the plants are pollinated with a brother. Culled today, he done his job well. I’m expecting another pairing with a male that I’ve tortured very badly, if he resist well and if I’ve a clean female for him (not won yet ^^).
Just breeding’s smal talk, and just to show that the daily journey is more about farming with what you have than squeezing brain juice.
May Jah ear you ^^
Not counting on them but as you have maybe read previously … it’s sometimes more complicated that it look. I’ve already thrown an eye around, the offer is dry to get some africaans. And when you’re a bit specific, it become even more complicated. Don’t talk to me about Ace or World of Seeds please ^^ I liked the work of Afropips and Africa Seeds, unfortunately this kind of good projects don’t last in general.
Not the first i ear critics of this system, with this pattern. Someday I’ve to put a feet on this continent to feel the vibes myself, the inclusion (but not by the banks sadly, fools) of cannabis on a national economy is fascinating me. And beside all legit critics that can be made, here we knew it only by the Dutch case. That is at a light year from USA/CAN dynamic, in having started a lot earlier. I’m a kind of admirative on this angle of the equation, but i’m not a dreamer at all in another hand.
Structured market is ok for me, but damn 200K for the starter pack and the network required to have … to make it streamlined, or even possible i guess, is insane. And dangerous for corruption, and i consider corruption as dangerous for democracy.
On controls … i like the way Oregon is managing it. I’m serious. I like it. For everything else, well … business is a shark tank with universal rules for all markets by definition ^^ I’ve nothing against business lol
And places like Overgrow (#1 & #2) are very important in my books to give the change against the excess of business that can’t be dodged. By a base of an army of “David”. Yeah the punky grain of sand again ^^
Both camps have their flaws and qualities anyway … but education of stoners, any type, is the absolute key that balance the things, i think. I’ve learned fast to never critic an offer before understanding the pressure of the demand from where it born. And it hate fems as a whole equation since the very first pack sold ^^
I’m able to produce lead breeding documents but I’m not very much the right guy to teach the mystery of the biology, phyto and all this funk. Like the lead-PhD-genetician-scientist of Trilogene Seeds discovering the use of cannabis polyploids in 2023 (it’s a kind taunt, i respect his researches). On a daily basis and at the end of the chain, all these smart asses need this guy that make the things real and that is talking with plants more than with humans ^^
It’s not a new age or a kind of esoteric concept in fact, it’s how it’s maded (for humans too) by said by me 
. And you’re asking the development of this entertaining digression to someone that restrict strictly his education (on this matter) to what he’s able to use with the hands and to transform it in something reliable. So be prevented, you can be burned in public place (just for the pleasure most of the time) if you quote my utilitarian shortcuts.
I need to start with something that a close friend is hating. And i need to roll another one, i fucking love this JH.
So cannabis have sexual chromosomes and autosomes (not specified sexually). Only with this, you’re immolated lmao
The real singularity (for me, i only care about cannabis) is in the allocation of these datas and their types.
To be dioecious, cannabis just push a male’s chromosome occurrence and not much more. Everything else is autosomal.
So a (true) male carry the potential of his sexual chromosome and the autosomal potential (both restricted by the phenotype). Which represent in this plant the whole picture : males and females.
Females carry the autosomes and are female because they don’t carry the male’s chromosome. Let’s say a silly thing but clear : they are not female because they are females, but they are female because they are not males. It’s the principe of autosomes.
Now this is not binary and it become a bit tricky i guess without a bunch of rounds to screen for herms by example. Or asking yourself after many failures “why the fuck in this hybrid the female’s terps of the strain ABC are never reinforced” ^^.
The autosome permit the expression of male’s traits, female’s traits and every nuances between them … if there is no male’s chromosome.
It’s why i’m a bit sad when i see a “regs are 50/50 males/females”. You can have 25% males, 75% males, 100% males and restricted to a single 10bag, even no males. The marketing don’t decide it arbitrary.
The JH is kicking/stacking, it’s enough damned long i suppose ^^
But to finish on something more down-to-earth, when you say “i screen this lines for herms”. No one will burn you, even the more nerds of the nerds. Everybody understand it quite easily no matter if they agree or not with your strategy.
When i say “I’m very angry to have to screen the shit out from these three digits commercial releases”, in my brain it translate in : let’s inject males back, enough strong to make this line more strongly dioecious each round. And if you don’t do it with a true male, it’s just like doing nothing.
I disagree, the fallout of standard of quality offered by seeds is a reality for me. What i called decent yesterday, is today something that need work … on something supposed to be already worked and sold as it. I really dislike it, because i consider the prices as not in accordance with this lowered standard.
On cuts it’s a bit more complicated, but we are not talking about breeding really. Everyone can screen a shit ton of seeds and just keep a fire weed that is bland genetically. I’m not throwing a shadow on this particular and important library of references, i’ve some favored cuts myself (to smoke and/or to work with), but it’s important to call a cat, a cat. And also to don’t lure the wannabe that owning one cut is enough.
I think they are all doing this if they have in mind to make a motherplant to smoke during a time. At least. And from the casual stoner to the weed producers (generally responsible of most of elite cuts).
I don’t classify breeding in this dynamic, it’s a different approach. It’s initially made to last, transmit, used to generate elite cuts and eventually to survive you as the ultimate reward.
When you know well your classics, you realize fast how narrowed an lazy is the actual genpool. Hided by fancy stories, ego wars and marketing of all sort. Not so many good strains, no. But a lot of diluted versions of what offered the golden age of cannabis that i personally place in the 90’s.
Older farts than me will disagree because the very old lines, but they can’t disagree on the fact that in 90’s we were able to choose easily on the way taken. No bulldozers to make everything flat, just the usual trendy cycles that don’t changed much the diversified horizon.
Choosing the right lines to start is a real problematic today, even in knowing perfectly what you need.
Same page on this. In even a bit more radical and salty maybe ^^
It’s contradictory ^^
Hey thanks, and 100% well sifted. At the difference that i have choosen (recently) to no longer explore. Let’s say without entering in details that it’s my little reward for all the craziness of the past, and its sacrifices.
So the STS will mostly stay on bottom of the toolbox, just in case of …
It’s an incredible experimental tool, and a good compass. Now it’s a factual debate with a friend to know if it’s possible to stay competitive with a “male’s breeding”, in generating breeding materials with it. I’m strongly convinced that it’s not possible, even in term of speed in term of improving rate of each generation. I go this far ^^ I renew the way i can the pleasure to make seeds lol Like a stoner.
It’s remembering me that i want to roll another one, but i shouldn’t. The JH is a synaptic doping to a certain point, after it just melt your brain in a THC/THCV soup. And i will launch all seeds in the house also ^^
I understand the finality plainly, but as a legit reward of your efforts.
Not all are like DJ Short, totally crazy to see his genetic used and asking fancy constraints, royal teas and more to have the “honor” to screen his Blueberry … he never understood that to be famous for something is a duty for the global genpool. Not a privilege. You have to do it again, or to pass the hand.
On the other side you have chunkers that are just hacking plain catalogs with a single pollen donor and sell the release as it. If not direct double-fems.
I think there is a elegant way in the middle that can be found.
Now on the absolute concept, you’re in the technical obligation to continue the work of someone else. Even in basing your breeding on landraces of ancestral drug’s cultivars. I’m all for an elegant manner to use genetics, but not on a point that make no sense philosophically. Call it a punk-thing if you want, just sharing my angle.
On a very personal aspect, if i have to heal a strain to use it I consider it mine without any form of hesitation. Now the context can count. If i work with someone it’s totally different that the case where i have to sell a kidney to literally buy a genetic material. It’s not binary in my head, but contextual.
In another hand i’m not the guy that hide his sources in any way, i’m for a full transparency. No matter what, who and how much it’s polemic, i always credit the last shepherd in date before me. I’m not in karma-things, for me it’s just peace of mind. I need space for my breeding plans ^^
So yes, i hope you will find the best rational ratio for you without being idealist at the point to rewrite how the reality is. No one own cannabis you know, we are not gods or supreme entities, and it’s good like this in my book. And i totally piss on the face of those patenting beings of all kind of forms also lol
No i sincerely i can’t. Not even because i start to be seriously baked but because it’s also a big task that will get out from the entertaining share and the discussion. I’ve to talk also about the main variations, the inner problematic of lines,my manner to select both, the patterns … but i can explain why to discover it, or not.
At first, the 5yrs old kid equation. Plant randomly a bunch of seeds of skunk#1 and of black widow in a gigantic greenhouse and even if you know nothing about cannabis you will be able to tag them in two main group at the speed you’re walking, without knowing what the fuck it is. And it’s not a caricature.
The scale doesn’t really matter, if i mix 5 seeds of both in a bag and that a beginner grow it … it will be equally easy. If he or she don’t cheat in watching closely the patterns of the seed’s shapes lol
They are both permissive weed machine as reliable indoor than outdoor in almost everywhere, but they are expressing it differently.
Without doing the marketing of two wealthy companies that don’t need my ass for free to promote them, it’s simple to expose.
The WW/BW is like a rounded bush that like to grip the soil like a giant hand, a skunk will grow more in a taller and pyramidal shape, digging deep in soil with less main roots but thicker. Only at this step, it’s enough to sort them fast for anyone.
Now on buds, the WW/BW is coated by trichomes and leafy on floral spots where the skunk is not specially covered but with “well-groomed” floral. Specially along the trunk. You that while flowered it become even more easy.
And it don’t end at the plants, it continue on the final product. The skunk buds are lightly aerated, you can squeeze it a bit without breaking the bud while the WW/BW will be more hard and sticky but not drastically much. A WW/BW will not smell much while a skunk also develop something strong in very various ways : it can be an acrid musk like … a fruity or sugared scent, or the both, or the three ^^
The WW/BW is very sweet to smoke, soft and dense in throat while the skunk is more frank and raw. The WW/BW is calming and make you think there not enough hamac in the world, while the skunk can be used as a day-smoke. The first is almost all on the body and swear in head while you’re done, the skunk it’s the strict reverse : it start by a warm wave in head. Skunk have more ceiling while you’re abusing it, but both can be very strong
You see that at each step, it’s not a question of nuance but a strict difference. I pass on the motherplants, the cloning perf and the SOG potential … the list continue. Hybridization potential ? same.
And my mantra is that everyone have to know these differences, it’s more important that they can figure out for the next time they get hyped ^^
I took these two because they are pillars that everyone know by the name, but it exist a shit ton of others combos that are as distant. Like i don’t know, making the difference between the potential of a pure Northern Lights (Ortega to stay around your borders) and a stabilized Afghani. Both are afghanis, but when you known how grow a Northern Light … you discover a shit ton of strains based on it and not necessary sold as it ^^
Then, strains after strains … you start to see the nuances you’re talking about. It’s not necessary to know them all, but at least the most used is a very good thing and can help to realize that marketing is more destroying the education of stoners than helping it in general. There is always exceptions that are playing true with their customers, but they will be the first to be happy to have educated and demanding stoners as customers ^^
With the number of plants i’m culling per year, i will be hypocrite to say that i agree. It’s all about the catalog of expressions that you have between the ears. The more it’s filled, the less you’re loosing your time, you money and your space with specimens that you’re not searching. It’s harsh to say for the fresh blood, but it’s not the thing requiring super power often presented either.
It’s like books, when you don’t have read any one it’s always intensive at the begin. Then it become a matter of milliseconds after when you have already read the same kind of story, to recognize the book concerned. Fuck my analogy start to be strange, i’ve to finish this post lol
Yup, totally. So only the constancy pay and not giving up at the first failure. If you’re demotivated by your failure and don’t enjoy it, you have not failed your breeding plan. You’re just in the darkness to don’t have planned the next move. In breeding bad weed is equally useful than good weed, they both lead you to the right choices to make.
It’s the JH for me, and it’s not even my creation at all even if i prefer it tailored for my taste … so inbred and not F1. But my love come from the 90’s, so more than 20 years that i love to smoke it daily as much as i can. Fuck this, it sux to age.
For my own crosses it’s weird, one time i reached the end line I’m no longer interested even to smoke it lol
I appreciate it a lot, enjoy it … but i’m already thinking hard about the next strain to finish. Generally already started lol You know you’re a cooker chief, you have stuff to cook and blend … you cook then ^^ Another fucked analogy damn.
Breeding is very addictive, and when you reach your cruiser speed … you’re like a machine because you have already realized that you have to move your asses ASAP to make all the weeds you’re dreaming about lol But projects don’t stop to stack … that’s the problem. A great one.
Variations offer more different smokes than people not understand how they appreciate to inbred something, but like you say it’s not necessary to drive a single project at a time. I know also a couple of guys totally dedicated to an unique line they smoke since years … all ways lead to Rome.
When i’m forced to inbred/screen like the wind something, i save my ass by dominance tests. Like the Shiskaberry x Big Bud by example. It’s not integrated in the genpool, not a project and no plan … i will just launch the seeds like and enjoy it. I diversify the blunts, i reference in my brain the global resistance of a strain on another, i will be able to recognize the female expression used, discover a new potency profile, and be more prepared to attack the Shiska pure. One stone, 5 birds … and only with twos secondaries that have not annoyed my flow.
You have paid the seeds you’re making. With the bills of the grow and eventually the risks you took.
For me it have to be a win-win trade, just throwing seeds is not interesting. No one finally win in this operation. Now it’s just my opinion, and totally related with my infinite need to launch seeds lol
Asian, indian, south american cultivars are not my ground. Like absolutely not ^^
It’s not hierarchic or anything, it was just more practical for me to be focus on the african continent since the begin.
Now i don’t see a runt personally but a case of “nanism”. It can be genetical, epigenetic, the chlorophyll not responding well to the spectrum or the density, root waiting for a specific stimulation … many options are on the table. If you don’t test everything you can to trigger something, even if appear crazy … you will never know.
Breeding depressions are generally more expressing first with various variegations and fucked phyllotaxy (the plant losing its symetry fast and strongly). But cannabis, even hemp is a solid annual able to go very far without a hint of this kind of depression (the real one). It can trough two digits lines without showing anything but a herm or two something. The depression is human, you don’t live enough long to worry an entire specy with a decent work.
But selfing in chain like a robot can accelerate fast the first symptoms, to make a loop ^^ Like all other artificial pressures acting like a brutal time machine in fact and used like a method and not like a tool included in a method, ga3 it’s the same. A hammer without a hand is just iron and wood, a house will not suddenly rise from the dust in hammering the soil. Oh this one was pretty well fucked lol
Ignoring everything you have not made yourself is not specially a good calculation, we have a legacy and an history. Strains are just experience of others stacked for us, from the same fucking plant.
Now ignoring a factual proof that is not specially very unknown and singular … it become religious, not even a belief. Why not, i don’t judge. I’ve quoted Breeder Steve to push you to figure out how he done it, because you’re in the colors things. And he used the colors of the Blueberry to best backcross the SPG (by example), in killing everything colored by it.
There is a shit ton of others famous examples of what “you don’t believe”, entire catalog builded with it, specialized breeders … it’s not my way. I just give you a hint to don’t be ignored by educated stoners that can help you to grow stronger just with this kind of sentence 
But you can open a subject on OG saying that the C99 don’t exist because you decided it wasn’t possible also, it will be a great moment for a lot of readers trust me. Just shoot me a message before, so i can make some pop corn and see it with my own eyes too 
Damn, my dyslexia can’t keep up with these walls of text 
Pz 
This is so true for cannabis, people “think”, “believe” and have “philosophies”. Biology is physics at a higher level and you do now hear space x saying these things when they build rockets that can land on earth again. Nature doesn’t care what humans are thinking, it just does what it does. That’s why we humans can go to school and learn about WHAT it does and HOW it works. That doesn’t mean that school is the only place you can educate yourself about it. But breeding is a 100% scientific approach to modify plants to your needs.
Im with @Fuel, if you want to grow as a breeder or grower. You need to put all your biases to the side and listen to others while educate yourself to be able to see what is based on science and what is based on believes. Because if we don’t do that, all the best cultivars will come out of Labs full of white coats in 10 years and breeders will now understand why their cultivars are majorly subpar… Please wake up, I don’t want the future…
Pz
Hi all,this guy @LonelyOC has been of help and a very gentleman with my First reversal,also other GREAT OGers have offered their help too.
Also @Fuel and @crunkyeah did spend some words above.
Anyway,now I am starting truly to focus on my goal,for which I choose two Purple buds dominant trait autos,fems seeds,and want to obtain a 99% strain out of these which Will display Purple leaves or buds,Dark Purple.
Now,can this be achieved through fems only?
I have a couple seeds of Black Cream Auto and Red Poison auto both Sweet seeds.
Please educate me a Little.
I got a 80cmx80x170 tent and use Coco coir.
Thanks a lot of you will spend some time together here to help me.
99% is fairly close to the perfection, and it’s not something I’ve tasted yet ^^
I don’t know the SWS14/SWS04, if there are F1 or not, how the females were selected and from what. Mostly a guess-game for me.
If both are showing what you’re searching with stability, the goal can be consider as already accomplished.
In this context, most of the job will be to maintain the “auto” quality in the progeny with a backcross to some (let’s call it) “pure ruderalis”. And to bring back afterward the purple. In a kind of infinite loop, in dodging bullets (herms).
Technically, yes.
Basically popping all the seeds and being ready to spray Sts to the selected females,then the F1 Will be the result and I Need to select for those traits again popping as many as I can.
If the F1 are already 90% or more Purple I Just Need to self and make a lot of seeds.
Am I understanding It right?
Those seeds are already automatics so no Need to cross to ruderalis right?
At one point you have to experience it, then come back to share your results and your feedbacks with us.
I’m not a magician buddy, 75% of what i’m able to do is entirely dependent on what i’m already knowing on the lines i’m screening. I strictly don’t know the genetic material you will launch, and its making-of.
This first step is very important, you will need a ton of seeds of the original material for the further steps. To be able to explore options and eventually revert back an error. You can’t keep motherplants in veg.
You have a double-breeding constraint in your case :
Thank you so much friend!
I thought selfing was a bad practice to obtain more seeds of a strain( let’s Say I have only One seed and I want more)
Let’s say it depend on the persons and on their factual results at long term. Political and neutralized sentence that can please everyone ^^
I’ve already stated clearly and accurately what i will do with your space. I’ve never hided also that i’m totally against this tech to generate long lasting breeding materials, but it’s just me and my opinion is no longer representing a dominant opinion on this matter since a while now.
Contact a bunch of seedbanks offering fems and autofems (sweet seeds included, obviously, but also dutch passion, sensi seeds, serious seeds, paradise seeds, DNA etc … labels with a minimum of mileage), quote one of their release and ask them directly if they think if the said fem or autofem is compliant with the project to make seeds at home as your hobby. Just this.
I know it’s trendy to shoot on sight on brick&mortar breeders, but you can be fairly surprised by the answers you can get in asking this question with respect, politeness and with a genuine interest. And you can even delight the community in posting the different answers here, adding your stone to the castle. One stone, hundreds of birds.
Crossing two purple plants will have probable result in the same ratios as seen in the cultivars your are crossing or a blend between the two. You might be lucky to find two super recessive mother which would result in 100% purple plants. But generally it’s hard to breed 100% purple plants.
The most easy way to achieve 100% purple plants in seeds are S1ing a super recessive mother. But you won’t know she’s super recessive until you have looked at her prodigy. So this is a moment 22 sort of deal. That’s why most breeders dont really give so mu h about making a pure purple line.
Pz
@funkyfunk Yeah, I’ve read that and everyone got their take on the matter. I’m a very scientific person and that makes me look at cannabis in a scientific way also. There are ZERO scientific substance in that cannabis males have some special sauce or that plants from female to female interaction would be inferior in any way, shape or form. DNA in plants doesn’t work that way and when you are reversing a plant, you do not change it sex, you force it to grow boy part and repress the girl part. It’s still a girl through and through. A reversal doesn’t change DNA, or increase the likelihood of hermaphrodites.
The truth is that making huge batches of fem seeds are a lot harder then making huge batches of reg seeds. There are so many ways the reversals can go wrong and it’s a gamble. So the breeders who do it always have a risk factor which are higher then reg seeds.
So why are people doing it?
Well, the customers what fem seeds, because of any number of reasons. But as legal plant count increases, so will the use of reg seeds and long flowering sativas.
Pz
Sure, I didn’t mean by posting it I fully subscribe to what the blog post assert. I’m in no way competent enough on genetics to judge on that. That’s a bit why I’ve posted this here TBH
Though I don’t think it says that reversal “change the DNA” or are produces “inferior” progeny.
Also sex-linked traits seems to be a thing that has been observed, but who knows for sure?
I’m on the scientific side of things too (but not exclusively), but always take science with a bit of salt. There’s a lot of stuff “science” doesn’t know yet. Things being thrown away because new evidences appear it was a bad assumption. For example, is there evidence that cannabis males have NO “special sauce”?
I didn’t think about STS as another stress factor that reveal sexual instabilities. That’s a way of thinking about it I’m sitting on until I know enough to be sure. Hopefully knowledgeable people here will help to sort this out
