Only as a hybrid, unless you go back to the lab and reverse another clone. Can it be called a strain if there is no natural population? and no male of the phenotype/strain. Just seems like a cut/pheno/geno not a strain, Or just a clone. As for bottlenecking genetics, by using femmed parental stock for creating an ibl, I do not have enough info and there hasn’t been enough time for multihybrids to show some of these pitfalls on the retail market as far as I know. Whether the mite problem sweeping across the States has been affected by breeding practices (as well as poor growing methods) is anyones guess.
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Yes, a female-only seed line is a strain, even with no males. Very few cultivars of any crops exist as natural populations, so that isn’t a requirement. Domesticated crops need humans to survive.
Bottlenecking out disease resistance is a different issue. Regular sexed varieties can be bottlenecked in the same manner; and you can have seed borne, feminized lines with high variability.
Breeding IS the purposeful bottlenecking out of undesirable genotypes. Often disease resistance genes are lost along the way if they are not under selective pressure during the breeding process.
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The male contributes half the genome with a 50/50 chance of donating a Y chromosome. When a reversed female is the male, it fills this role with 0 chance of donating a Y. There is nothing lost by not having a Y chromosome, other than not having male plants (so that would be a problem if you are growing a food-seed crop. To produce seed for a female crop, it isn’t that hard to reverse enough females (although large, outdoor fem seed production is a bit harder)).
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Nothing inherently wrong with feminized seeds imho and nor is there any reason that feminizing can’t also be used in a breeding program that includes using regular males… for example in general selfing can get you to an IBL faster than with regular male/female breeding… so a breeder/grower/polen chucker could use selfing to stabilize a strain prior to outcrossing with a male from another line… which could then be an f1 depending on the stability of the male line, or the breeder could back cross to breed out any unwanted traits from the male side or to introduce triaits like disease resistance etc… feminising in that sense is just another tool that can be used when it’s appropriate…
Selfing, like any intensive inbreeding can lead to a build up of deleterious recessive genes becoming dominant in expression i.e inbred suppression… Though some additional care has to be taken with selfing in that sense… one way to minimise the risk is to self a mother while keeping a clone and then growing out the seeds and sefling the best pheno back over the mother and repeating this until the pheno expression is reasonably consistent. Selfing repeatedly down the line is asking for trouble imho.
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I found this chart that may be of use to some OGers to get an idea of the amount of inbreeding required to get to an ibl and more usefull the ratio of expected hetrozygosity to heterozygosity of the respective F(n) generations.
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Hi growinghigher! I live up in Corvallis and have been trying to get some New breed seeds. I haven’t been able to access the website like I used to be able to. How would I go about making a large autoflower seed purchase?
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I have a question as to breeding related strains to achieve homogony… Saying you cross two strains A and B and achieve an f1. You breed that f1 to f3 with frosty purple being the goal, which was a trait of strain A. Im wondering if it would be beneficial in stabilization to hit the f3 with an f2 of strain A that has the traits that im breeding for or if it would be a step backwards with stabilization in mind. @slain
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It depends what your goals are and how the relevant traits are inherited: What is in strain B that you are trying to add? If strain A has all the traits you are selecting for, it could make sense. But then why did you make the cross to B in the first place? Also, how inbred is strain A to begin with?
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More or less goals are end up with seeds that produce chunky frosty purple buds and that breed relatively “true”. Strain B brought green, chunky buds and chem terps… The parents are both multi polyhybrids… Like this>
A - lavender(skunk x big skunk korean x hawii afghani) x B - appalachia(green crack x tres dawg)
I would say it is probably a step backwards, unless you have culled out traits you wanted along the way or are experiencing inbreeding depression. Crossing back to a polyhybrid parent will reintroduce all the variation in that parent.
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Thanks for the advice, after pondering about it a while i was thinking the same thing.
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What is the name of this book? I am reading marijuana botany by Robert Clarke. Older but great anyway. Decent breeding section.
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If you want to get to some level of reliably expressed traits like purple etc, then your fastest approach imho is to do the cross to f1, which will be exceedingly unlikely to actually be an f1 due the the likely variability in the parents (real true breeding strains are a rare as rocking horse shit…) and then take those seeds and do a pheno hunt, because there will be a lot more variability that if it were a ‘true’ F1, find the one with the traits you want, and then… keep a mother of it… take a cutting and self it (S1), then take another cutting of the mother, grow it along side the seeds from the S1 and again self the clone and seed the progeny, then only collect seeds from those plants with the traits you want and that resemble the mother… rinse and repeat as much as you want… if it’s only for your own purpose then 3 or 4 generations is normally fine, you will get some variability, but also less inbred loss of vigour…
You will only have fems this way, though if you did want regs you could develop separate lines and introduce the male once you have the traits you want semi reliable… bit more of a frig around is all…
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Thanks man, ill have to take this approach into consideration… maybe ill get some cs and play around with it next round… will be nice not to have to keep a male about since i dont have a chamber dedicated for one
Hmm wonder how those numbers change when BXing. I would think it woukd soeed it up by a generation or two. @Tonygreen do you have any chargs showing percentage expressions for BXing? Thanks
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This is some great reading from an awesome mind. Seems as though he shared the vision of a lot of people here and it is respectable that he was willing to share his ideas and experience to encourage others. Thanks for posting it up👍
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The math on back crossing and selfing is the same.
Here is where skill comes into play.
Frequency is what we control when we breed.
1:2:1 ratios right? aa Aa AA… if you are going for something homozygous if you get a few gens in and select an Aa to backcross accidentally you just fucked up, math goes back to square one basically. You could be 9 gens in and you just reset the board.
That’s why I outcrossed gb every gen. To test progeny and validate. My entire effort is one breeding project ha.
Selfing is a great tool because you eliminate the x and y stuff the male brings. If done right. I dont see it being used for it’s best benefit by most breeders, that is moving frequency in ways that assist your selection, they just chuck away.
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Lmao, would run your ‘Experiment generations my just to sort through your ‘trash’
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More complicated than that even. All of these ratios and frequencies tossed around are more correctly describing individual gene pairs and not the entire genome in the same order as the p1.
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