Can Hydroponic Growing Ever be considered Organic?

[ryasco]

If it has never been alive, it can’t be organic by definition.

a (1) : of, relating to, or derived from living organisms

organic evolution

(2) : of, relating to, yielding, or involving the use of food produced with the use of feed or fertilizer of plant or animal origin without employment of chemically formulated fertilizers, growth stimulants, antibiotics, or pesticides

organic farming

organic produce

b (1) : of, relating to, or containing carbon compounds

organic solvents

(2) : relating to, being, or dealt with by a branch of chemistry concerned with the carbon compounds of living beings and most other carbon compounds

studied organic chemistry in college

[MicroDoser]

@ryasco

If it has never been alive, it can’t be organic by definition.

This has always been my opinion but it seems some regulating bodies also accepts organic production methods for non-living things and certifies them organic. It seems they accept one way of an organic production method is not using certain pesticides or chemicals and being careful about contamination.

Here is a site selling Organic Unrefined Le Guérande Fleur de Sel Celtic Sea Salt, which has organic certification.

The word ‘organic’ has an actual meaning for people who know the meanings of word, and you are right when you say it cannot be applied to something which has never lived.

The organic certification though, which applies more accurately to the subject of the thread, can be applied to products which meet certain standards, even if those products were never alive.

Not, it seems, in the USA though. Also the soil association in the UK will only hand out an organic compliant certification. New Zealand and France though will give salt a fully organic certificate.

Just by being alive, plants in a hydro system are organic (meaning they are organic life) under the first definition. By using the right feed and being careful about what you use you could have organic hydro under the second.

But like I say I reckon you would not get as good a result as proper organic even though it is technically possible. I also personally do not regard it as organically grown.

[ryasco]

I think changing a definition instead of using a different or new word for a process is just a way to justify a wrong action. The word organic sells so change the definition so we can apply it to more goods so we can sell more products. The correct terminology is not important, what is important is selling as much product as possible without being sued for fraud.
My opinion anyway.

[MicroDoser]

Sounds right.

The linked article in the OP says as much.

@oleskool830

According to James W. Brown, writing on the Web site of CropKing, a company that sells greenhouses and hydroponic equipment, the word hydroponic suffers from an image problem that the word “organic” might correct. By using a system whereby certain bacteria digest organic matter to create nutrients in a separate location, which are then “delivered to the plant via solution,” growers can “market their produce as being organic because that will command a premium price.” The process, says Brown, is “certifiable under the guidelines of the National Organic Program” (NOP).

Hydro growers want more money for their product so they are going to shoe-horn into organic certification by having a process which cannot be excluded from it.

I grow hydro and do not use pesticides and I am very careful about what gets fed to the plants as far as additives goes but would never dream of calling it organic.

EDIT : Just noticed the guy who wrote that is called James Brown.

[Morgwar]

I think I’m going to dump the whole organic hype and just go with natural.
There are just too many naturally occurring amendments that are perfectly healthy to use.
If I’m selective about the process in which those amendments are resourced, then at least I know I’m not smoking poison.

[horribleherk56]

that about as a good of a way of looking at it as I can think of im growing in tupur & use megacrop in one tent & floranova bloom in the other I don’t use hormone to promote root growth & for 3 rounds now no spray organic or otherwise as I consume my product not organic by any means but I try to keep it wholesome

[legalcanada]

i believe megacrop is technically organic

[WMoon518]

I know this ios an older thread, but I was reading through it and something caught my eye. I really could give a damn about organic or non-organic since I just grow for me, but the topic interests me.

@GreenleafNutrients

Organic may not be so healthy as people think, since manure and animal products that can be classified as “organic” may come from factory farms, where the animals are treated terribly, and given hormones/antibiotics. So not only can you be contributing to the cruel animal agriculture industry, but there can be toxics and hormones in the animal excrement that is considered “organic.” Even fish meal from the oceans are high in mercury, arsenic and cadmium, and these are all considered “organic” by OMRI.

It was my understanding that, in order to get an OMRI certification, your manure and animal products COULDN’T come from places that used hormones and antibiotics and fish meal had to come from farmed fish, devoid of such toxins. Am I wrong?

[GreenleafNutrients]

Here is what I found. I actually wasn’t 100% sure, so looked it up. There are extremely low requirements for manure sources, and do not mention anything about antibiotics or hormones.

https://www.certifiedorganic.bc.ca/standards/docs/CAN-CGSB-32.310-2015E.pdf

Sources of manures shall meet the requirements in par. 5.5.1 of CAN/CGSB 32.310 Organic Pro-
duction Systems – General Principles and Management Standards.

If anyone can post more info about this, please let me know would look it over.

[WMoon518]

@GreenleafNutrients

Here is what I found. I actually wasn’t 100% sure, so looked it up. There are extremely low requirements for manure sources, and do not mention anything about antibiotics or hormones.

https://www.certifiedorganic.bc.ca/standards/docs/CAN-CGSB-32.310-2015E.pdf

Sources of manures shall meet the requirements in par. 5.5.1 of CAN/CGSB 32.310 Organic Pro-
duction Systems – General Principles and Management Standards.

If anyone can post more info about this, please let me know would look it over.

I can’t remember where I saw it, as I was doing a bunch of research for my garden (food). Back in TX I used to go to a small poultry farm near me that didn’t use any kind of hormones or antibiotics and “Free Ranged” their chickens, to get composted manure. It was cheap and really good. Now in SoCal, no farms like that here, so started doing a load of searches and reading.

It seems like, to be honest, there is no real standard as everyone seems to say something different. Or maybe they just ignore any standards that are out there. Would really love to get this pinned down, though the back problems make gardening tough, if not impossible, I would love to get it back going if I can get it under control.

The question would also be, is the Canuck standards and the US the same? Similar?

[oleskool830]

@MicroDoser

: Just noticed the guy who wrote that is called James Brown.

He’s a Sex Machine!

[webeblzr]

Hey OG, I know this thread is older, but I did read through it first, and I hope I’m NOT posting incorrectly, I seem to not really understand when I can post and when I’m going to get the nasty gram of start your own thread so I just prefer to not post.
But this thread idea has interested me for a few years now after I found this:
http://precedings.nature.com/documents/2494/version/1/html
I found it very interesting, maybe someone else will also. Sorry if I broke the rules again.

[GreenCaciqueHawaii]

Said constructed, soooooo i think that word tells by itself is not organic, at least not natural

[ReikoX]

Thanks for sharing. It’s an interesting read.

[ReikoX]

It is natural, just like any other KNF type nutrient. They are using microbes to transform organic nitrogen to mineral nitrogen. The same thing that happens in soil. What is novel about this concept is they construct this ecosystem in water.

It reminds me of setting up an aquaculture for live plants in an aquarium. You have to “cycle” the tank first. These ammonium nitrate nitrite tests are common and available for aquariums.

[GreenCaciqueHawaii]

Yes i know acuarium stuff use to have one with natural planta dor years until my brother mess it up , when human is in between messing i will not call it much natural or organic , we can mimic some stuff but is not going to be the same

[ReikoX]

@GreenCaciqueHawaii

when human is in between messing i will not call it much natural or organic

So by that logic, none of us are organic gardeners then? Humans mix soils, add amendments, sow the seeds where we want, and selectively breed them.

For me organic means processed by organisms as opposed to processed by a lab (chemicals). Also, I’ve always said there is nothing natural about growing indoors with artificial light.

[GreenCaciqueHawaii]

Thats correct my friend , we want.to be the creators but unfortunately we arent , if notice in history human intervention mess everithing , hopefully we find a way to coexist with nature instead of try to rule it

[anon32470837]

Seems to me there is a tug of war going on here as far as the definition, and the boundaries of the word “organic”.

Many want to define it as being ‘natural’ growing, or only including ingredients, and techniques, and methods that happen in nature. Nothing artificial at all even if it is good for the plant or increases harvests, etc.

Others - like me - have always thought it just meant not using toxic chemicals as bug sprays, or additives to the nutes like hormones, etc. In other words - making sure there was nothing toxic or harmful ending up in the final food we eat.

As far as the nature folks, I think thats kind of silly, or at least hypocritical to some degree. If you are going to grow weed 100% natural, then you wouldnt be able to do anything to it. You would have to rely 100% on the plants to grow on their own, pollinate themselves, drop seeds where they will and wait until a plant grows to harvest it. You cant even plant a seed yourself, because thats not 100% natural. No watering, no weeding, no pruning, and for sure no indoor growing of any kind at all.

Obviously, thats the extreme, ‘push it to the logical limit’ take on it, but where do you draw the line?

How much “non-natural” stuff are you going to allow and still call it “organic”? ----nutes, techniques, lighting, plastic pots, man made soils, SCROG screens, LST, super cropping, cloning, timers, PH meters, and additives, temperature regulation, humidity control, artificial pollination, cross breeding, rock wool, coco, perlite, etc etc etc etc etc etc.

Thats a crazy twisting road with no street signs or lane markers and no agreement on speed limits or traffic control. or even which side of the road to drive on.

I suspect the official governing bodies are driven more by big money players than science.

It seems to me that if you are growing in any organized, or controlled fashion, where you control how, when or where the plant grows, then its not 100% natural, so by the ‘natural’ definition, its not organic - to at least some degree.

Of course, there is a whole spectrum here from 100% natural (you just happened to find it growing in the woods) to a highly controlled, hi tech indoor environment using all artificial nutes.

By my definition, of course hydro can be organic. Just dont use toxic chemicals anywhere in the system and only use food safe plastics = bingo

[WMoon518]

@anon32470837
You could add compost too. It could be considered “man-made”. After all, all the things don’t come together, by themselves. Unless leaves happen to fall on a pile of dirt, some plants fall down on top and a wild animal comes by and digs the pile, from time to time, mixing everything up, just before it rains.