Can Hydroponic Growing Ever be considered Organic?

Indoor Growing Hydroponics
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To throw another view out there, I have a plot on an organic allotment site. The rule is no pesticides or other chemical bug or weed killers, or anything that would kill essential life.

We have bees, frogs, and other life on site for that.

That said, we are allowed non-organic fertilisers and composts although the main source of nutrients is manure and leaf mould.

Is our allotment organic?

Some would say yes, some would say no.

I would say we are. My concern with choosing organic over non-organic is pesticides and things like that anyway.

I feel just as much joy eating our produce as any food produced using more strict organic methods. Once nutrients are inside the plant they are the same anyway as far as I am aware, if someone knows otherwise let me know.

I recently dived deep into cellular level root function, no-dig (no-till), fungus, bacteria, plant succession, and plant processes and I am more happy running hydro than I was before.

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As far as the title question of whether organic gardening is organic — I like to use the term “Food Grade-oponics.” (The name’s a work in progress :joy: )
There is almost nothing in the soil mix, nutrient regimen or IPM, that I would be afraid of eating. The fish emulsion is really the only thing that I’m scared of coming in contact with :sweat_smile:

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I should point out that I didnt mean to imply that there is anything wrong with trying to grow as naturally/organically as possible. I think thats a good thing actually. Different strokes and all that. Plus, who the heck am I to tell anyone, other than myself, how to grow? :slight_smile:

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Not at all, that’s the point of this whole thread

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The sad part is, the USDA doesnt have an organic standard. I believe the EU just came up with one. Just food for thought one thing they consider with “organic” certification is sustainability of the resource.

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Recently a bunch of water companies tried to release “organic” spring water. They would not certify them because water does not contain carbon. And that’s exactly what the term organic means containing carbon. Not if a bird poops it, or it’s natural, or it’s how plants grow in the wild. Organic means containing carbon. That’s why perilite is “organic.” We are left with a problem though. Plants need water so therefore if you feed straight h20 it’s inorganic because you added an inorganic compound. That’s why I like the term “Natural Farming” because “organic” is just a term made up to fool people into thinking products are safer than they truly are. No one grows “organic” I don’t see any carbon in h20 :joy::joy::joy:

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And yet Maldon sea salt is certified organic because the process used to make it is organic, even though it is just dried out sea salt and contains no carbon.

Other salts are also certified organic or can be used in food which is allowed to be called organic because they contain no pesticides or anti caking additives.


every SaltWorks salt is all-natural, which complies with organic standards, so they can be deemed “organic compliant.” In other words, they can be used as an ingredient in organic products without changing the organic status of the end product, as they contain no anti-caking agents or other additives. This is the highest and most natural guarantee possible for salts in the United States.

HimalaSalt is the only Himalayan Salt manufacturer that produces all products in-house, located in a facility that is 100% powered by onsite Solar, and is Certified Organic, Non-GMO, Gluten-Free, and Kosher for Passover year round.

In chemistry, an organic salt is a * * bond between an anion and cation *

Organic is more than just carbon. There are many meanings of the word in reality.

EDIT : I agree the term is almost meaningless now.

EDIT 2 : So to go back to the original question, the answer is yes, for some definitions of organic. And for other definitions, no.

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My thought or opinion of what organic is : anything that was once living and altered in the least possible way when used to grow our plants.

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Oil?

Coal?

Oil and coal were once living and the only processes they have been through are completely natural and involved no pesticides.

Many farmers use fertilisers derived from oil. It could be argued that as the original plants and animals were all organic, and consumed purely organic nutrients that oil and coal are organic. They certainly contain carbon and were made from organic sources naturally.

If the process of turning oil or coal into fertiliser was somehow certified as an organic process then it could be argued that the resulting fertilisers were organic.

Which is of course plainly ludicrous.

Please do not take this post as a criticism of yours.

I only say this to show that the definition of ‘organic’ is a slippery one and hard to define, and there are many ways you could stay within the definition of organic and yet produce something nobody would ever call organic if they examined it. You can be sure some company will try to claim it though if there is a profit to be made.

IMHO To truly answer the question of whether hydro could be organic, first you must very rigidly define organic to remove loopholes.

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@MicroDoser I agree with the statements about what’s organic but that’s why I put in there " lest altered from its original form" defiantly a broad term for sure in what’s considered organic then there’s the opinion one might hold about methodologies that constitutes whats organic such as any liquid that might come a bottle as might be considered inorganic.

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Exactly. The question of what is organic is as easy to answer as the question of which is the best cheese. Everyone has their own answer and none are wrong yet none are right.

In the spectrum of growing there is completely wild no-dig growing, allowing all the forces of nature to be at play in the growth of your plant where you just throw the seed and hope at one end, and factory farming GM plants, under lights, using pesticides, hormones and other additives and salt based chemicals at the other.

In between on the grey scale is where pretty much every grower exists. Nobody is pure.

One way of looking at this would be to say “Is there a way of growing in hydro so that nobody, not a scientist a hipster or a connoisoire, could detect any difference in the final product when compared to an organically produced product?” I feel this question would allow more meaningful and objective answers.

To my mind, the question in the OP is so open to personal viewpoint so as to make it almost unanswerable. Anyone could feasibly consider some types of hydro to be organic but would they be right to do so?

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I would like to think the term “organic” means something similar to the Hippocratic oath, to do no harm. IMHO, whatever you deam to be organic practices, you are thinking out each and everyone of your actions, and most importantly your reactions. Questions to ask, will this harm me? Will it have a lasting effect on myself or others? Can, no action…ensure the safest harvest? …my 1 cent …cuz i ain’t got 2

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Technically, for Canada and USA they use OMRI standards

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Not exactly true, since “organic” fertilizer necessarily means using fish meal, bone meal, animal blood and manure which all comes from dead animals, so essentially you are financially supporting these industries that cause harm to animals.

Also, “organic” (using OMRI definition) farming allows for pesticides that are more dangerous potentially than conventionally grown agriculture. Organic just means coming from nature or earth, however rattlesnake poison or black widow venom is natural but of course you wouldn’t want to be stung by it, so its kind of a natural fallacy that is going on.

Also, there are synthetic organic pesticides

To help address those challenges the National Organic Program (NOP) allows the use of certain natural-based and synthetic substances as pesticides. The NOP’s National List of Allowed and Prohibited Substances details about 25 synthetic products that are allowed to be used in organic crop production.

Also, organic but dangerous pesticides such as Rotenone are allowed for organic farming

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They are also organic I would assume :wink:

I know I have been all round the houses in this thread but the simple questions “what is organic” and “can hydro ever be organic” are not as simple as they appear on the surface and cut right to the heart of the ethos we have as growers.

Good thread. It has made me think about things I probably would not have otherwise.

To my mind, if you grow a plant for food or to smoke then it should not contain anything extra to the plant you have grown which would be dangerous to consume or smoke. This could be pesticides, or even spraying nutrients on leaf surfaces you plant to eat as I have heard this can make them carcinogenic (I think due to heavy metal accumulation in the leaf).

Even just drinking whole leaf aloe vera extract can give lab rats cancer (Clear Evidence of Carcinogenic Activity by a Whole-Leaf Extract of Aloe barbadensis Miller (Aloe vera) in F344/N Rats) and cause intestinal irritation in lower doses. Organic or not. And people drink that as a health supplement to soothe their intestines…

I imagine we all want to produce the best cannabis we can, and we probably have as many views on what that is as there are people here. Nothing is 100% safe in this world, and by extension, nothing is perfect or ideal for everyone.

Like @GreenleafNutrients says, there are organic pesticides worse than some chemical ones, there are synthetic pesticides rated as organic. In the same way, there are organic growing techniques worse than some non-organic methods, and vice versa. Compare an ‘organic’ grower who heavily uses Rotenone to a hydro grower who uses no pesticides for example.

To my mind, the term ‘organic’ has been so heavily co-opted by industry and marketing so as to make it almost meaningless to someone trying to find products. To some, buying products is not sustainable organic growing because they consider the only input you need to be the sun. While they are technically correct (the best kind of correct) this is simply not possible for the vast majority of growers who must compromise somewhere along the way. Everyone else is somewhere in the grey scale on the way to fully chemical industrial growing. In this context, hydro is not that bad in the grand scheme of things. There are worse things you could do.

I must admit to playing a little devil’s advocate in this thread because I agree with most of you, and I think we generally agree here. We all want the least amount of crap in our cannabis, and we want our plants to grow as well as they can.

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So can u use fpj and ffj in a hydroponic resevoir?

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I’d recommend you don’t use any biological anything in a hydroponic reservoir. Keep it clean and sterile.

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That would make sense…