How many problems can root rot cause? I am very confused - so many problems Week 6 Flower - DWC System

[DabbertGlobberfield]

Ok, I am so confused as to what is happening and am a little all over the place but stick with me cause I know there’s an issue here and I would like to either solve it or at the very least understand it.

The problem is in 1 plant of 4 clones and is starting in a 2nd.

This problem has now been going on about 2 weeks. I remember when I first spotted a discoloration. around day 34 flower(today is day 46flower). It was only in this one plant and I had been having issues with its water being cloudy and smelling bad as well and I started to focus on this plant.

After heavy research and back and forth, I think what is going on is a root rot situation. Because, I don’t know what in the actual heck is going on here otherwise. It looked like potassium and calcium deficiencies. So I bumped up P/K and reduced N. That didn’t help and the it started looking like light burn/bleaching with calcium and potassium deficiencies. But the other plants aren’t getting burnt or are bleaching.

Does root rot cause plants to be more sensitive to light intensity?

I cannot confirm root rot because I cannot inspect the roots in their entirety. The plants are in a DWC system and are in a trellis net. They cannot be moved and due to certain circumstances that took place during the grow, they are in a DWC like situation where I can’t see all the roots.

I have been treating with Great White Mycorrhizae which has generated new root growth and also mycorrhizal growth on the roots themselves. I don’t have hydroguard, but I did order Southern AG GFF. It came today and I applied .01-.02 ml to the res. Also, I reduced the ppm in the problem plant’s reservoir to 500ppm. Not sure if I should reduce further, but I don’t want to burn it with nutes if it cant process since the light is reduced and the leaves are bleaching.

So I am increasing root treatment but what should I do with the plant? I already turned down the light to 70% down from full power(which was fine for 4 weeks and still is for the other plants).I fee like I should put a blocker up or something to shade it. It might not look too bad in the photos, but the spots and bleaching and discolorations are making their way closer and closer to the buds. The entire plant is slowly turning, even though only a few branches are showing obvious signs. Should I let this go? What if it doesn’t recover? How will I know it isn’t going to recover? If it won’t recover, and I can determine that, should I cut it down early first(today is day 46 flower for reference)? Should I harvest the bad branches if they look like they will only get worse?

Then, I am starting to see slight signs starting in a 2nd plant of the 4. This one also had cloudy water that smelled bad at one point. The water would smell like eggs and rotten vegetables or something. It’s dissipated with flushes.

Here is info on the grow. Let me know if you need any more info, I have it… lol

DWC
Advanced nutrients - 689ppm was the feeding last feeding
I let pH range between 5.5-6.2, if I find it outside of this range I adjust. I check at least 2x per light period
Mars Hydro FC6500 - 730w
light is 20 inches above canopy
Has been turned down to 538ppfd / DLI 23 for a week already
4 clones in a 4x4
vpd between 1.2-1.5
I had my rh around 40-45% before, but raised it after more leaves started bleaching on the problem plant -
Current temp / rh: 73f / 52%

This is when I first noticed a slight discoloration before all hell broke loose(day 34 flower). All the following photos were taken between this point and today showing the problem progressing.

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Only a few days later it progressed markedly and continued progressing rapidly. Also, I noticed a different types of deficiencies showing up

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Its been creeping closer and closer to the flowers and damaging sugar leaves

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This is one plant, then next to it another totally unaffected plant. Both are clones and have been getting exactly same everything.

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Here you can see the lines between plants growing. The first photo has the line at the top. The 2nd photo is more obvious

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It’s getting worse, it’s 9 days after I first noticed the problem

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This is really weird and interesting, I pulled a few of the diseased leaves off and one of them has almost like a sun tan. It really makes a case for light burn and light is causing this. But if light is causing this, why are the other 3 plants not affected the same way? That’s why I am asking if root rot causes sensitivity to light.

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Getting worse

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1st photo shows the line between plants with and without problems. 2nd photo is of the neighbor plant to the problem plant looking good with no signs of light bleaching

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This is the 2nd plant, the signs are starting to show in the other plant. They are the same. What is this?

[blowdout2269]

If you’re sure its root rot, can you change the reservoir?
A lot of that damage looks like a potassium deficiency. Have you tried bring the pH up a couple points?
Also, what are the reservoir temperatures and are you using Hydroguard? CaMg?

I would use Advanced Nutrients pH Perfect Micro, Grow, and Bloom with the addition of SensiMag Xtra in my DWC res at 1000-1100 ppm with a very small amount of nute burn on the tips.

[BU2B]

I am really NOT trying to sound snerchy but for me there are two reasons for growing in Hydro, ease of use (easy correction and adaptation) AND results. If you can’t see, get too, change your tubs or reservoirs easily you’ve really negated half of the usefulness of growing in hydro in my opinion.

I am sorry to say it really does look like root issues. Maybe even a combination of nutrient lock-out and root issues combined. At this late stage of your grow you may be better off trying to prevent further damage without doing a complete flush and recovery; which at this point could seriously affect your yield. I would definitely be doubling up on your root inoculant, keeping things as cool as possible.

I would suggest that in the future as soon as the issue shows up, or any major issue you have problems with in Hydro; do a flush and start with fresh solution. In emergency situations - hydrogen peroxide is your friend. It will kill practically any microbe or fungus and turn to water in 3 days. If you find you have to use it be sure to do so with ph’d water only and add back in your root inoculant x2 and your nutrients at reduced levels (for a week or so) when your done. Don’t add it with the hydrogen peroxide as it will kill the enzymes. I would also strongly suggest that if you do not have a way to quickly and easily maintain your solution or tubs that you make THIS your first priority if you plan to continue growing in hydro. Whatever it takes - nutrient and tub flushes must be made a part of your practice. This will not only result in less headache and hassle for you in the long run it will also allow for overall healthier grows. Mistakes and errors happen - it’s why pencils have erasers so don’t be too hard on yourself. All you can do is the best you can.

[GrouchyOldMan]

Greetings @DabbertGlobberfield,

You’ve received some sound advice above, so I’ll add one comment.

I gather you are using the Southern Ag fungicide as a root inoculant instead of Hydroguard. That’s a good choice since it is a cheaper and more concentrated version of the same active agent. That said, your dosage seems way low. I use three ml per gallon in my micro octopots with good results.

Since your problem seems to be root rot, stepping up the dosage in addition to the other steps in probably prudent.

Best of luck,
-Grouchy

[blowdout2269]

Great advice. Very useful to a hydro newbie like me as well.

[webeblzr]

[they are in a DWC like situation where I can’t see all the roots.]
Is the solution moving 24/7?
What is the temperature of the solution?
Man, that is harsh, not being able to get to your roots during a run.
In my hydro fails, solution temps to high, 68-72f is gold.
Solution can stagnate if not moving.

[blowdout2269]

I’m curious if you’ve found any of this helpful.
Are you coming back to tell us what ur doing?

[pharmerfil]

I run a very similar setup (dwc with led’s) and I think you may have a couple different issues. First if you can get you ambient air temp up to 80-82. You made a good choice with the southern ag instead of hydrogaurd it’s way less expensive and should help if there are actually root issues present. The last thing I would do is increase my nutrients to full strength and get my ph to 5.8. I use jacks 321 and run the normal formula all the way through flower. In my experience reducing your nutrients to low levels or flushing in dwc is really hard on the plant. Its not like soil where there are left over nutrients for the plant to use up, in hydro if there’s not enough in the water right that second the plant is starving.

[DabbertGlobberfield]

EDIT: I realized, that having some images of the system and tent might help visualize what I am working with -

How the plants sit in the system

The best shot I can find showing what I can see

Net pots sit in these

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lol… yes I planned on coming back. I typed a response 3 other times, but they got too long. It seems I might not be able to avoid that so I will embrace it. Plus the rosin nap really broke up my night.

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I am curious about the following things:

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I already have put into place a treatment regimen; However, I don’t know what I’m doing. For this specific plant in this grow currently, what would a suggested and or recommended treatment be?

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Could this be some kind of virus instead of root rot?
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Does root rot cause plants to be more sensitive to light intensity?
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How will I know if the plant isn’t going to recover?
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Is there a point where I will know if the plant is going to die?
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If this only continues to progress and invade flower on all the branches and it looks like it is not getting better(I know green won’t come back) and I can determine that it is dying, should I cut it down early or harvest the bad branches if they look like they will only get worse? I feel like photos make it look better than seeing it up close… lol

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Now I will provide more and also clarifying information in response to all the posts here and I will do it in descending order until I am caught up. I will also provide an update at the end. Please know, any questions I ask are out of ignorance and not trying to be like, “Well I thought this and that”. So any questions I am asking are for clarification and not to bring attention to something I think is wrong, mainly because I do not know any better.

I am like 85% sure it is root rot. I can change the water in the reservoir, but not the reservoir itself. I change the water 1x a week, I aim for every Monday as it coincides with the first day of a new week of flower. I have not flushed mid week this week for the problem plant though as the water did not get cloudy and doesn’t smell bad.

I don’t know what you mean by, “try to bring the pH up a couple points”. I let the pH range between 5.5-6.2, if it gets outside of that range I adjust it. Are you suggesting I allow pH to go higher than 6.2?

To answer a few posts, my reservoir temps are between 61f-64f and never get above 66f. I am not using Hydroguard and never used it. This grow is more than 140 days old and started as an ebb and flow system, but only 6 weeks of the 140+ days have been DWC because there was a need to switch system types mid-grow(easy correction and adaption). Either way, no Hydroguard for the entire time. I did just obtain GFF which is a different version of Hydroguard and just started using that. I am using AN Cal Mag Xtra.

1000-1100 ppm seems high. I actually was feeding that, and higher, in ebb and flow during veg) but when I switched to DWC that high of a feeding burnt the tips and started the initial nutrient tip burn across all the plants. None of the plants had nutrient burn prior to the DWC switch from ebb and flow. So I have been lowering the ppms until I found the place where everything leveled out(water level stable or down, pH up or down, ppm up or down, and what all that means together). Most of what I found, in my after the fact DWC research, showed people would have a lower ppm/ec in DWC. Or maybe I’m wrong. Either way, my plants didn’t like feedings above 1000ppm. The other 2 plants in the system are thriving on the same feedings in the 650-750 range.

I had not mentioned in my earlier post that this system was an ebb and flow system before and was adapted to become a DWC as a bandaid solution once the ebb and flow was getting clogged by roots. I used to be able to change and access everything, but in the switch, I had to make concessions. I can access part of the roots, but I cannot remove the plants anymore. Once the trellis net was installed, access did become limited because plants can’t come out of the tent or be lifted up and out of the reservoirs anymore.

How does changing tubs or reservoirs even work if the plants are in trellis nets? Or are you just talking about water changing? I will not be continuing DWC grows in the future and will redesign an ebb and flow system based on my experience with the first system and will continue with that type of flood and drain system.

Sorry, I was wrong about the amount of GFF I applied. I thought the pipette was in the hundredths, not tenths, because it is so small. I applied at least 0.1 - 0.2 ml of GFF to the reservoirs. I can’t tell exactly because the pipette only starts counting at .5ml but has a big run up to that measurement. So I just gave the reservoirs, of 4-5 gallons each, a few drops(maybe even up to .3) based on my estimation of how much it could be in the pipette.

I will do a better job of measuring for the next application in a few days which overlaps with the water change. I only had a hard time measuring because it was a small amount. Next time I will put 1.5ml into 22 gallons. When I was looking into GFF and Hydroguard, it would seem that the general consensus was that 1ml per 10-20 gallons was plenty of GFF to be effective. The reasoning why seemed sound and based in the biology and science behind how GFF works, so I am going to start with 1.5ml for now and see what happens. Plus, it is 1,000,000x more concentrated than Hydroguard so I definitely do not want to overdo it. The warnings in the labeling are intense…

The solution is bubbling 24/7; If that counts as moving 24/7, then yes. Otherwise, I usually will mix around the water when adjusting and checking ppm/ph 2x a light cylce.
Temp is between 61-64f never higher than 66f

Why would I want to raise my temp up to 80-82f in week 6 going into week 7 flower?
Please keep in mind, there are several other non-affected plants in the tent as well. I have already reduced the light, that the other healthy plants enjoyed. So this issue with the problem plants is already causing side affects to the plants doing well by way of light intensity reduction. I would need to know why I would raise up the temp to 80-82f before doing that as I was under the impression I should aim for mid-low 70s in during flowering…

Also, why would you increase your nutrients to full strength? If I increased my nutes to full strength, the ppm/ec would be outrageously high. Easily in the 2000s. Advanced nutrients are crazy. Plus, when I had a high ppm early on some nutes would cause A LOT of foaming. So I would want to have a supporting reason for increasing my nutrients to full strength. I was under the impression that I should reduce the ppm/ec of the water because the plant right now is hurting and if I blast it with more and stronger nutes it will just add to the problems. Plus I am reducing the light intensity. On top of that, a bunch of photosynthesis able leaves are dying rapidly on the problem plant. So shouldn’t I reduce the ppms with that as well since photosynthesis will be reduced?

Realistically, what is happening to the plant right now is probably a lot worse than reducing ppm. Right? So I will do anything it takes right now to stop further damage from happening. I don’t care if it has to be RO water with bennys that need daily changes for a week. At this point, a reduced harvest for this plant is not a concern. I just want it not to die or get worse. I have 3 other plants that are fine. I don’t care if the harvest is lower. I care about lower quality, that is why I am asking if I should cut it down or cut off damaged branches before it gets worse. As I don’t want to have a bunch of diseased damaged leaf flower that is trashy. I will already have to do my best to remove all the dead leaf matter before trying to wash or do something with this plants flower, at least for those branches that are really bad with deficiencies.

For the update: Part of me doesn’t want to post photos because that will draw the eye rather then this enticing wall of text from a newbie out of his depth. But I did promise that 10 years ago when I started writing this. So here is the update from today with photos below.

At lights on, all the ppms and pH were documented and I didn’t have to adjust any pH. I may have to in an hour or two when I check again. I will probably add some water. Writing this I am remembering I forgot to load up some gallons because of the rosin nap. So I will get some pH water gallons ready to add to reservoirs that have fed.

I was also considering flushing out the problem plant because I noticed today a film/slime on the side of the bucket that wasn’t there yesterday. So I can only assume it came from the GFF as reported from others during my research. The roots on the problem plant have also darkened from yesterday to today… But the roots have been getting dark and light for a while now.

There are a lot of new little root buds, this is a very new development as it started with applications of Great White. At first it looked like mycelia, which it probably was and then that stimulated root growth, then they turned into roots. Part of me wants to raise the water level, but I had dropped it cause it was too high in the first place. I noticed, when emptying the reservoir, that once I emptied past a certain level it would smell bad. So I kept the water level under that spot for a little bit. This whole grow I basically have just been dodging and weaving. It’s my first one

I made sure to take some photos of the roots, to show you what I see or can see/access.

Plant D(the plant with the most obvious and multiple deficiencies)

Roots

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Above

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Plant B(the other plant with issues just starting but progressing)
Roots

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Above

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Plant A (no issues)
Roots

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Above

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Plant C (no issues)
Roots

Above

[logangrowgan2020]

I’m def novice level, but those roots look shitty dog.

My thoughts are the bucket walls are interfering with the bubbles and promoting pockets of rot, which then spread.

My gut on resolution is to “shock” the system with peroxide solution then same day replace the water again and try to just finish this run. Moving forward, if you can swing it, I think you’ll have much better luck with a grodan/flood table set up.

[webeblzr]

Hey DabbertGlobberfield,
If your not smelling rot, you do not have it. It is a smell your nose will NOT forget. It is pretty unmistakable IMHO.
Solution looks lively.
You may want to consider, simple 5 gallon bucket lid’s that have a 10" net pot molded into it.
Yeah your roots may be discolored by Advanced, I could not afford the high end nutrients, many folks love them.
In my hydro grows, when I mix up MasterBlend Tomato food, it comes out to 500-550 ppm’s, every time.
During veg time (above 18 hours lights on time) plenty of growth going on. ( I also bastardize my grows, mixing organics and salts as I wish)
By Flowering time, when I add my flower nutrient, I use Morbloom, a double portion shot glass to 10 gallons of Masterblend, as it drops my PH down, perfectly, but the PPM’s are now in the 1000-1100 range.
Then I walk away from it. It is easy to chase numbers, but it can cause you to chase your tail.
I suggest getting your solution temps up to mid 60’s, 68f the prime.
You may be locking out the nutrient uptake, with cooler solution.
Wish all the best for you !!

[CosmoNut]

Ok so a few things…

All of that is root rot including the ones in the photos that are labeled as fine.

So you got 2 options as I see it and I have done both.

Option 1 March on forward… The plants will continue to deteriorate but will continue to ripen and put on some mass. They will get crispy leaves at parts look fine at others and they are basically dieing a slow death. If they were smaller I would suggest getting your hand in that root ball and start tugging. Pull away anything brown or loose and then finally give a 5 -10 min soak in a hydrogen peroxide/water mixture. hydrogen peroxide is the chemo to this cancer, Too much kills the plant and the cancer, to little does nothing. I forget the h202 ratio to water.
Of course a rez change is needed after all this but IMHO you aren’t going to be at the rot this round.

Option 2 chop clean and restart. I don’t know why or how you go the rot but your going to want to clean the heck on or your system and media or your just transfer the rot to a new group of plants when you restart.

Sorry for the bad news, just went through this on my last run in rdwc. Fyi I let my continue to ripen until the trichomes turned cloudy and then I chopped and reset.

[CosmoNut]

Are you using tap or RO water and are you trying to run a live rez with beneficial bacteria or a “dead” rez with no bacteria. I had no success with the later but many other folks do…I think it’s just important to pick a rez path, live or dead (bacteria wise) so that folks can give you the correct advice.

[blowdout2269]

Unless its slimy and smells bad, I would assume the discoloration is just the nutrients. An yes, I meant change the reservoir fluid, not the reservoir itself. Which AN line are you using?
Full disclosure - I am far from a hydro expert.