So I grew out some feminized seeds and one out three plants Hermed. I put the herm outside figuring it wasn’t useless. I also had a couple males out there for maybe a couple weeks. Anyway…the plants smelled great, the ones that didn’t herm were good producers too. Are the seeds out the herm worth keeping? Further more, the indoor one that did t herm had a couple seeds, and by a couple, I mean they were rare. Few and far between. The one I put outside was totally seeded. Thoughts on saving the seeds?
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Most ppl will probably say same as me. Not worth the collateral damage possibilities.
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You could save them run them and hunt them but i would expect it to be a mess. But a solid female can come from them and it can be cloned and taken further
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Not unless it was phenomenal smoke and you plan to work out the herm traits.
I’ve heard of some good herms named strains today from bagseed crossed out. Occasionally I find one in a pound usually immature.
It’s not worth running with others but if you throw outdoors could be decent.
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for you? grow a couple and see maybe gold in them beans 
to share not for me 
to make more beans I would not but others have
and sold them
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Depends on the kind of herm and what you might want to do.
I have a high CBD photoperiod that can Rodelize in late flower (they were from feminized seed stock), so I look at these as a serious positive.
If the male flowers are mixed in with the F/M flowers - I’d scrap the plant.
The beans can be used for growing experiments. Good for trying different things out without jeopardizing rare beans. I used some to test out a procedure for popping old beans recently.
Cheers
G
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I have a similar sitch, a Lebanese landrace that produced a mild Pheno that makes a great wake up weed. They probably wouldn’t have Hermed but I I had lighting misshap and something fell in the timer and messed it up. They wound up not getting light for eighteen hours then getting eighteen hours straight.
There were two plants and I don’t know which one Hermed. I couldn’t find a banana anywhere
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GG4 was the product of a herm to my understanding, seems everyone sells it
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I had a blueberry auto throw seeds one time I planted 2 seeds they were females,so it’s a toss of the coin
I still have 8 of the seeds
This makes me want to stop thowing away the seeds I find in my recently harvested herm
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If it’s obviously hermi while all the rest are fine, prob want to avoid it. But if it was just a nanner now and then, if it’s really good, some would just keep and eye out and deal with it. Occasional nanners can be annoying, but provide a few seeds here and there that are likely fem and fine. I grew out 6 seeds from 4 different bags (strains) of dispensary/delivery buds. Very lightly seeded as it was just 1-2 seeds in a half oz, so likely nanners in the various growers gardens. Only 1 out of 6 turned into an obvious hermi, the rest seemed fine right up to the end when bud rot hit. But the two plants I did get to harvest were seedless, so likely there was no pollen thrown around.
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The strongest plant I’ve ever ran came from a herm. I pheno hunted all the seeds because I got way too baked and had nothing better to do. This one plant would just not die and kept exploding in growth.
Really wishing I still had that plant bud sadly she is gone and there will never be another.
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Didn’t clone before blooming? or just through time something happened or let it go? I hate the idea of losing a favorite plant, been through it myself. Back in the day when it wasn’t open sharing like it is now, I didn’t have anyone to back up the cuts. plus OG 1 shut down just before I lost them, and contacts were lost too.
But on that same note, out of the practice bag seed plants I mentioned, my practice clones didn’t take well. I only managed to get one of the two banana kush plants to root and grow, also not sure which of the two it is. But either of them would be the keepers of the batch. If only I had grown them bigger lol.
I’m really hoping it’s this one, her sister was in a bad soil mix and had issues, so can’t really judge the growth but the smoke were both similar.
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My question would be who the father is. Could be a fun time if you have a separate space you don’t mind hermies popping up in.
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I’m actually planning another bag seed grow in the future. I’m saving the slurricane, triangle kush, OG Kush, GG4 and what ever other seeds I get now. I even just requested a few more dispensary bag seeds from another member. The mystery cross is the fun part, if it comes out better than the mother (bag I smoked) then I consider it a win, like finding gold out of trash. Like that Kush plant I pictured above, definitely better than the banana kush from the dispensary growers.
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Well we ought to talk about how malleable cannabis gender is.
An individual seed may express as Female or Male, depending on how its genetic information reacts to the specific environment from germination, throughout seedling stage and into vegetative growth; the plant is always sensing and calculating its optimal form for procreative purposes.
Environmental factors such as warm soil, low light intensity, low nutrient levels, sparse soil, short daylight hours, and wavelengths of predominantly green and red light are all correlated to increased M:F ratios; the converse being true to improve the rates of Female expression.
It is surely true that each unique genetic may be steered toward male or female expression with environmental influences specific to it; warmth and excess soil moisture may increase M:F ratios for a particular Afghanic or for a particular narrow-leaf landrace; each unique plant (genetic) will have myriad reactions with which the cumulative effects results in our observation of its gender. We don’t see all the individual genetic sequences being run constantly like an ever-writing code; instead we see a plant that either did what we expect it to in our environment, or see a plant that reacted adversely to our environment. (Regardless of how “perfect” or mean the environmental factors are.)
Once initial gender is expressed, the individual plant’s genetics further determine its’ range of gender expression, with regard to tolerances and thresholds to specific hormones, as well as the internal morphological expression of the plant. (Shape/diameter/flowrate of sap channels; phloem, xylem, etc. are all genetically unique and distribute each compound differently; ie. shape/function of cells and fibres at different growth stages, and how readily each state of sapflow facilitates or deters rapid hormonal shift or specific hormonal delivery; ie. one genetic may be predisposed to ethylene inhibition from pistil damage early in flower, while another may be highly tolerant to ethylene inhibitors by way of sapflow physics, or pistil damage in early flower may not generate sufficient inhibition of ethylene to produce staminate flowers–yet this same genetic may be predisposed to intersex traits specifically after peak ethylene production is reached during bloom ripening and begins to decline; that the declining ethylene production after a high triggers intersex traits.
And so there isn’t a genetic switch for Male or Female. There are thousands of unique specialized genetic switches, each with its own specific calibration for data monitoring and each with multiple programmed reaction sequences. Each gene carries many alleles which can take “Gene Position” and thus steer the expression.
For example: One genetic sequence specifically tracks day temperature relative to night temperature in a 24 hour cycle; another sequence specifically tracks today’s temperature fluctuations relative to yesterday’s; and so on, with all aspects of environmental influence each individually monitored by the plant.
Each of these genetically unique sequences sense the environment constantly in the specialized and specific way it is programmed to monitor it, and then reacts with biochemical prompts in the specific way it is programmed to react.
In essence, it collects its own data immaculately and executes perfectly, optimally, exactly and always the best course of action, given the genetic tool kit it has access to, and which tools it is most familiar with. The genetic “tool kit” and the “familiarity” (or skill) of the plant with those specific tools is an analogy for what breeders do in selecting phenotype to develop a cultivar: we select Plumbers and sell Plumbers for people who need Plumbers, and we select Electricians and sell Electricians for people who need Electricians.
Can a Jack Herer seed become an OG Kush plant? Yes: we can train a Plumber to learn, over generations, how to become an Electrician. Sometimes we even germinate 10,000 Plumbers and say, “Hey look that dude is a Cabinet Maker!” and call it a “sport” or an “outlier” or, if it’s great–a “unicorn”.
Most breeders these days (myself included) sell seeds more similar to an unlicenced Handyman from Craigslist. Which of course is analogous to a modern polyhybrid with many phenotypic expressions, each of which will “get the job done” (look/smell good in a bag).
There’s nothing wrong with Mike or Fred or Jane or Bill or whoever you hire to fix the kitchen sink; and they each may use different materials (tepenes) to produce a different result (high). Regardless of who gets the job done or how, it gets done and the client is happy for having a fixed sink. The weed looks/smells good and sells. You just can’t expect that it’ll be done exactly as a Red Seal Plumber would have done the job–it isn’t insured. You can’t pop a pack and expect to get all uniform, Elite selections.
But there are breeders out there who offer those elite lines derived from high population sifts and excellent selections, which necessitate a singular focus. You can’t grow 10,000 seed of your line every cycle to F9+ while also releasing 10 new F1 crosses each year. You only have so much time and attention: if you are playing with multiple genetics and making many crosses, there are that many fewer plants for you to select from, and that many fewer chances to see strong specimens, and the line suffers (those who grow it at least) for having used low populations.
The really special stuff–all the past staples we’ve brought forward–most often comes out of large populations, typically said to be between 500 to 10,000 seeds of a single cultivar. It is by no means the rule–a person can pop one bag seed and have a GG#4 type plant in the garden, ready to sweep the nation. Just like how any old shmuck can win the lotto–there’s a winner every week.
But breeders be out here trying to win the lotto every week–we’re Professional Gamblers. Some of us go through the Casino and try a bit of everything and get lucky. (Breeding Polys) Others “have a system” and slowly accrue “luck”. (Breeding IBLs) Others buy a lotto ticket once a week and hope to hit it big some day. (Breeding F1s from low populations) And some are just hopeless gambling addicts who blow every paycheque at the roulette table, living only for the thrill of a win. (Pheno hunters)
I digress. I only mean to illustrate that there are gradients in sexual expression, and that the laymen result we observe and habitually seek to classify so rudimentarily as “female, male, or herm”. For example:
-There are “true females” that will not show any intersex traits, regardless of any adverse condition or environmental influence. Highest genetic female dominance.
-There are “true females” that won’t show intersex traits under typical adverse environmental conditions, such as defoliation, stalk damage, over-fertilization, temperature and relative humidity fluctuations, etc. However, extreme conditions not typically encountered in an average annual crop growth cycle may induce sparse intersex traits. Such examples of atypical conditions which may trigger an otherwise “true female” into exhibiting intersex traits are: extreme and repeated shifts in light cycle, mass (complete) defoliation or heavy browsing, severe root shock or trauma, or gaseous/foliar/soil hormonal influences from specific inputs (ie. Ethylene inhibitors and hormonal ferments), or even other nearby plants. High degree of genetic female dominance; intersex traits are extremely rare among all levels of cultivation competency and most cultivable environments.
-There are “true females” that won’t show intersex traits while in their normal crop growth cycle, but will “begin to herm” at a specific late-stage of life. ie. a genetic which will express intersex traits at week 9 with great consistency, but is routinely harvested by week 7, and thus this is never (or seldom) observed. High degree of genetic female dominance; intersex traits are extremely rare among all levels of cultivation competency and most cultivable environments.
And those are just a few variation examples in what we call “true females”. The range of behavior is incredible because so many ever-shifting metrics are in play. I recently posted on Reddit a male behaviour case study if anyone is interested: Reddit - Dive into anything
Veteran Breeder Opinions on Intersex Traits
I heard in an interview from Mean Gene that DJ Short and a few other breeders claim the best breeder males will actually throw some pistils at the apical meristem in late flower, or on one lateral branch.
The idea behind using males which shoot pistils, is that when we grow females and they exhibit intersex traits (male parts), it is due to an inherent male hormonal expression caused by male dominance within a primarily female expression; and so the converse holds true that: a true male which exhibits pistillate clusters, is actually due to an inherent female dominance in the genetic.
Some breeders (myself included) claim this actually produces a greater number of female expressions from the seed; improving the number of females the client will see (from regular seed). It is also thought that breeding with a female-dominant male will improve stability in regards to pistillate floral formation in times of stress; that it will actually reduce incidence of intersex traits in female expressions.
Of course, the assumptions are:
- There are such genetic information to determine predisposition to ethylene production, even in males; which may produce enough ethylene to create pistillate flowers. (Presumably a good thing to breed with.)
- That the morphological expression of pistillate flowers on a male plant–in the many different forms and patterns they may take–are each observable traits which can be linked to this supposed “female dominance”.
Note that “female dominance” is a loosely used term, which in this context refers to the theorized amalgam of many genes and their individual fine-tunings (alleles) which we see simplified as sexual expression. It is not one single gene that determines sex, but the hormonal contributions from the function of each of many genes, and the genetic thresholds to tolerate these hormonal (and other biologically synthesized compound) concentrations.
So should you really be keeping your seeds from herms? Well, there is a whole bunch of stuff to ask yourself:
-Is this the best? Is it absolutely smoke you must have?
-Is there sentimental attachment? Are you emotionally/spiritually/intellectually drawn to the plant?
-Do I know the environment these were grown in, and what factors may have caused the intersex traits which brought about this self or cross fertilization from reversed pollen?
-Do I have the time/energy/will/resources to grow a large number of these seeds, content that many may need to be culled?
-If I grow these sporadically, will I be content to encounter potentially unusable plants after aforementioned investments?
-Do I want to have a seed line I can share with others relatively soon? Or will I be content with perhaps having to work the line for a number of generations until selection once again favors stability in female sexual expressions?
My attitude is: If it is the best thing you’ve ever had, or something you or a loved one benefits from greatly, it is worth bringing the genetics forward and trying to grow those seeds out, regardless of what population you can look through. Special plants come into our hands for special reasons, and when we follow through in faith with Her, she will reward us; the small scale breeder with loving intentions can contribute much.
But there is also a lot, a lot, a lot of incredibly good weed out there. There are dozens–hundreds or even thousands–of entirely unique plants. You can spend your whole life and the next growing only ganja, and you still won’t even see it all. There will be shades of purple and pink and red and blue you just won’t see in this lifetime.
So I’ll say this: I may not want to waste this precious time I have here on Earth by traveling down the paths I see tangled before me. I also may turn sideways, face straight into the jungle, and begin hacking for myself a new path.
This is where I’m at now: I’ve got thirty females seeded, with eight unique terpene profiles in three catagories: sweets, fouls, and sours. I’m breeding a new auto line from Hubbabubbasmelloscope (fem auto) and Sundae Driver (S1 photo). When I eventually release, “Sundae Driver Auto” it will have been selected for the vanilla ice cream terps; right now this means pursuing the seed from plants #12 and #19, which smelled of vanilla and cream.
I have a male that turned into a full hermaphrodite, whose trichomes reek like the most perfect pungent Hubba Bubba bubblegum. Will I use it in the Sundae Driver auto line I’m working on? No–because the bubblegum terpenes do not match my aims, and the Sundae Driver S1 photo line already has intersex issues; I don’t want what any extra difficulty for what is unlikely to be what I am aiming for.
However, the genome of the male is much larger than the female. It carries approximately 4000+ more genes, which preliminary testing is showing mostly correlates to pest and pathogen protection properties; the terpenes.
It is a fact that breeding only females with females results in genetic information loss; no male chromosome is carried over, and the resulting progeny are less 4000 some odd genes. Breeders may select Female x Female combinations that produce progeny which don’t need or leverage relevantly those 4000 or so genes, and for all intents and purposes grow predictably and with great quality in a given environment. There is no need to knock on flower from fem seed–it is not less or worse; it was already selected for excellence, despite these missing male genetics.
One may think analogously of the situation as a very beautiful woman in a wheelchair as indoor fem seed; perhaps not particularly well suited for a romance with a professional mountain climber (an outdoor grower), but there are plenty of able-bodied average joes (average commercial and home growers) that’d be a great match. There’s nothing wrong with her per se, just a reality of limitations which must be accounted for; and so we don’t run fem seed bred indoors under HPS in rockwool outdoors in a shadey garden by the coast at the 49th; it can’t stand up on its own.
And so we look to Male plants and especially the ones which exhibit intersex traits, if the anecdotal experiences of DJ Short and other career breeders are one day to be realized by empiricism. It has been many breeders who have reversed males, or used intersex or hermaphrodite males, to generate Male S1 seed populations, to bring out secondary metabolites uncommonly seen in modern female cannabis expressions.
So do I chuck him because he was a male for 21+ days, and then began shooting pistils when I severely and repeatedly induced drastic photoperiodic shifts? Nah I let him keep growing–he dumped three times more pollen than any other male in the run. And low and behold: he produces some intense bubblegum terpenes in his trichomes, now that I’ve flowered him out another six weeks or so. His 200 or so S1 and F1 seeds are ripening now; for he was pollinated by himself, and another male used in the project; the same two males which open pollinated all the females to select from.
For the Hubbabubbasmelloscope x Sundae Driver auto line, the intersex male’s S1 seeds won’t be used. But his pollen already was–and so his genetics have carried forward.
For the F2 run of Hubbabubbasmelloscope x Sundae Driver, I will further segregate the phenotypes and maintain parallel lines; a Bubblegum line, a Vanilla Ice Cream line, and a Baby Poo Diaper / Skunk / Vomit line. Later when I am sifting the F3 population of seeds from the F2 Bubblegum leaning females, I can grow along with them the male intersex selfed seeds. But I won’t germinate his S1 seeds as I pop the F2 Vanilla/Cream phenos, because his potential as a progenitor to impart bubblegum terpenes is not leveraged intelligently to accomplish my aims of a Vanilla Ice Cream auto line.
Also, if I randomly feel like growing some Bubblegum autos, I can pop his seed–it is all well labeled, and I will know to expect 65%+ males in the population, with a high probability of intersex traits.
When I pull that trigger–when I choose to grow with herm seed–always depends on what I’m aiming at.
The first great example I had of this was buying 1/8th of “GSC x Big Bud” and getting 20+ seeds. I went back and bought another, and between the quarter I had 44 seeds. I grew them outdoors and had 100% females, zero intersex traits, and harvested a ton of hash and tea material.
There is a lot to be said for growing things organically in the sun. There is something corrective or healing or regulating about the sunlight and soil, that prevents many genetics from showing intersex traits. Considering that the cost of growing outdoors is substantially less than growing indoors, perhaps outdoors is the appropriate environment for growing, trialing, or remediating hermaphroditic genetics.
Each of us have a two-digit number which determines how many more Summers we will see. Each of those years, changes to our financial and health status (and legislative status) will influence how many plants we can see.
I say we ought to grow as many as we can while we’re young. If they’re all you have, plant them. If they’re all you can think about, plant them. If you can grow them without neglect causing detriment to another, plant them.
Hope you have a fun grow whatever you choose.
Take care,
-Dr. Zinko
Seven Trees
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Hey do you have any links to the science on this? As in any peer reviewed studies on cannabis? This came up in another topic about male / females but nobody seemed to have conclusive data pertaining to cannabis. It was mostly just long time growers / breeders saying it happens. Would like some confirmation on it that is a bit more actual science than possible bro-science. Asking as the general plant biology says male / female is locked in at seed creation but if longtime breeders / growers are seeing something else it may not be the same for cannabis?
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I don’t like plants with herm traits.
That being said I’ve grown out some bagseed with herm tendencies. At worst full herm. At best no herm. But I’ve also had to pick male flowers off of plants mid flower which is a bitch.
I wouldn’t use them.
I’ve grown great plants that I’ve had to pick off male parts from but all things being equal I’d rather not.
A few extra seeds is no big deal, but It’s a big risk, and my grow space is too small to absorb that risk.
All the best.
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There is no science on it. Its complete bullshit. A seeds gender is predetermined before germination.
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Yes, astute observation. In short, no there are no peer review studies in cannabis.
Empiricism, when accurately and honestly applied, serves the primary function of dispelling doubt. In society, this aids in the education of younger generations; particularly individuals who are healthy in their inquisitive or skeptical natures.
Much of what is quantified over time may also provide nuanced understanding through analytics; decades of empirical data seen in perspective to elaborate our knowledge.
Bro-science is a popular term of late, but I have wondered whether any distinction in the mind is made from when we say, “anecdotal evidence”. When have we dismissed proper anecdotal evidence among a history of cultivators under the umbrella of “bro-science”?
Perhaps the key distinction between the terms is in the inference by the individual; to experience phenomena and repeat the details of those observations is one thing, but to explain the reasons or underlying mechanisms behind the phenomena, is quite another.
Each day begins and we must act. In certain scenarios it is most advantageous to withhold action until further information is gathered; such as in approval of a pharmaceutical drug for nonprescription use. However, it is often the case that failure to act results in opportunity lost; one may spend time in research to accrue guidance, or may spend time in action to accrue results. The best teams are a mix of both individuals, and the most successful individuals are a balance of both.
When it comes to life and farming, time goes on unceasingly. Every moment is a decision on how to proceed; all inactions are decisions to abstain from action. For we may sow seed or good works at any second of any day, and through practice in craft and faith, we may improve our capacity for change over time.
I knew a boy who wanted to become a doctor, in order that he may help the ill. When he was within a few months of attaining his doctorate, he realized: in seven years of education he had helped practically no one.
He met up with an old friend from high school, who had become a pot dealer, and had been growing ganja and baking for the neighbourhood while he was in school.
They swapped stories. The doctor-to-be had a lot to say about medicine, and the grower/dealer had a lot to say about healing.
These days the good doctor grows ganja, and sure wishes he had seven more summers to crop.
-Dr. Zinko
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