Keeping seeds from herms....????

Breeder's Lab
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I’m sorry, Grohio, but you’re incorrect. Seed gender is not predetermined.

Even with two sets of same sex chromosomes, or in selfed plants, there is no determination in sex until germination and environmental influence occurs; it is an intelligent process between the organism and environment. There are several ways to steer it.

If your statement were true, that “seed gender is predetermined before germination”, then it would not be possible to cause hermaphroditic or intersex traits due to environmental stressors; though we know this is a common occurrence. Further, it would not be possible to influence morphological expression through bioremediative effort; we clearly see that genetics which herm indoors, do not herm outdoors and vice versa.

All observations and experience points to malleable gender in cannabis; that itself has been a major topic of cannabis cultivation discussion in recent decades, among thousands of individuals.

It interests me that you are quick to call that, “there is no science on it” in your first sentence, yet by your third sentence you have made an opposing claim, which itself also has no science to support. Do you have peer reviewed evidence that cannabis seed gender is predetermined before germination? Or has this been a double standard I’ve been held to so promptly?

Thank you for the lively chatter. As global legalization efforts ensue, I’m sure subsequent research in coming years will sort it all out, with ever-less room for the adoption of myth; nor will observation be so hastily dismissed.

-Dr. Zinko

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You are definitely in the minority on this one. Have a nice day or evening wherever your at.

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I guess the dna gender testing offered by companies like deltaleaf is all just a bunch of bullshit then. Even though its backed up by scientific research and data.

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I am in agreement with you; however – I think in the case of monoecious cannabis or hemp, there are other genetic factors involved in the regulation of certain hormones, being ethylene, auxins, gibberellins and maybe some others. So if you keep seeds from a monoecious plant, you still have other genetic factors that may carry with it.

For instance, we know that most strains can produce male flowers by the application of silver thiosulfate or colloidal silver. In monoecious hemp, I think it is likely the case that there are genetic factors involved in the down-regulation of ethylene or ethylene response genes. So even though a strain may be XX chromosomally (female), there may be genetically-linked inhibitions to the female hormones, causing monoecious expression.

So I think any possibility is available – genetic, epigenetic or environmental. I would not rule out any of those as being a cause for monoecious expression.

If you need evidence of the genetic factors, consider that monoecious traits can be passed genetically. Even weakly, if you breed with plants that have a propensity to express male traits in female plants, then you will often also observe it in their offspring. The anecdotal evidence suggests that the reason is genetic regulation of responses to plant hormones.

Last, chromosomal sex either XX female or XY male is already determined in the seeds. Monoecious expression is not the same. Consider that male plants flower quickly and die early. A monoecious plant does not respond the same way, but follows the flowering period of a typical female plant. Sexually it is female, but probably due to hormonal responses or lack of hormonal responses expresses male parts.

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We love this plant so much…and in turn it wants to exist for us…by any means necessary.

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If there’s no science it bro-science then. Thanks but until a peer reviewed study is available confirming this your just writing some nice wishful thinking.

Edit - also this should be piss easy for virtually any grow op to test. Take 10 plants from various strains, fuck them up in ways that supposedly makes them switch sex then test them on a monthly or weekly basis to check for changes. It’s been tested in other plants which interestingly, generally has males turning into females.

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For anyone who wants to read real up-to-date information on monoecious hemp, this article has some good information:

Some good excerpts –

Monecious plants morphology resembles that of female plants (Faux et al., 2016). Male plants mostly flower earlier than female plants (Bócsa and Karus, 1998; Struik et al., 2000) and die shortly after flowering, while female plants remain alive until seed maturation.

Hemp is a diploid species with 9 pairs of homomorphic autosomal chromosomes and a pair of heteromorphic sex chromosomes: X and Y (2n = 20) (Moliterni et al., 2004). The haploid genome size is 818 Mbp for female plants and 843 Mbp for male plants (van Bakel et al., 2011). Sex determination system in diecious hemp has been well studied. Male plants carry the heterogametic sex (XY) and female plants the homogametic one (XX). However, despite the presence of specific sex chromosomes, the phenotypic expression of sex in hemp shows some flexibility. Some diecious hemp plants produce flowers of the opposite sex than the one determined by their chromosomal composition (Moliterni et al., 2004). Monecious hemp plants carry the homogametic sex (XX) and the ratio of female to male flowers in a single monecious plant is highly variable (Faux et al., 2014). This variation ranges from monecious plants that have predominantly male flowers to predominantly female flowers (Faux et al., 2013, 2014, 2016). Diecious hemp species abundantly exist in nature, while monecious plants have been developed from some mutants that were selected during the domestication of the crop. Monecious accessions tend to show a wide range in sex ratios within the crop, including unisexual plants, and may gradually return to natural dioecy after a few generations (Bócsa and Karus, 1998; Amaducci et al., 2008a; Faux et al., 2013, 2014; Faux and Bertin, 2014). Constant strict selection of monecious plants is therefore needed to maintain monoecy during the seed multiplication (Moliterni et al., 2004). The instability of the sexual phenotype across generations, and the quantitative nature of expression of the sex suggests that sex expression is a rather polygenic trait (Faux et al., 2013, 2014; Faux and Bertin, 2014).

Similarity and differentiation between monoecious and dioecious hemp:

Four markers were found common between monecious and diecious populations, suggesting a partly common genetic basis. These results establish the prerequisite for further research on the genetic determination of sex in hemp using quantitative approaches. Furthermore, monecious accessions were partly linked to earliness, while diecious accessions to later flowering. This link suggested a partly common genetic variation and thus a partly common genetic basis underpinning the determination of sex-type (monecious/diecious) and flowering time (Faux et al., 2013; Petit et al., 2020b). Another link between sex-expression and flowering time is also found in the fact that male flowers are earlier than female flowers.

Effects of hormones in other monecious/diecious systems:

The phytohormones gibberellins, auxins, ethylene and cytokinins play a role on the expression of sex in many monecious and diecious systems (Truta et al., 2007). Generally, auxins and ethylene have feminizing effects (Heslop-Harrison, 1963; Galoch, 1978), whereas cytokinins and gibberellins have masculinizing effects, though contrasting effects have been observed for some species and experimental conditions [reviewed in Ainsworth (2000)].
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The ratio of the different phytohormones is very important in the phenotypic sex expression in hemp (Truta et al., 2007).

Acknowledgement that we are still in the infancy of scientific understanding:

Nevertheless, little is known about the genetic and molecular mechanisms that control sex determination, the origin of high plasticity of sex expression, sexual dimorphism and flowering time of hemp. In addition, markers to maintain hemp monoecy or to select for specific flowering time phenotypes are not available.

Hormonal regulation:

The identification of the two QTLs for sex determination across locations is a significant step toward understanding the sex determination system (monecious and diecious) of cannabis. Two auxin response factor genes (arf2 and arf5), bZIP transcription factor 16-like and gene gibberellic acid insensitive (gai) that codes for the DELLA RGL1-like protein were identified in QTL Sex_det1 for sex determination. These genes are involved in the balance of the phytohormones auxins and gibberellic acid, which are known to play an active role in the sex expression (male or female) in many crops, such as hemp or spinach [(Heslop-Harrison, 1956; Chailakhyan and Khryanin, 1978; Galoch, 2015) and reviewed in Salentijn et al. (2019)]. For instance, in spinach the gibberellic acid insensitive (Spgai) gene was two-fold higher expressed in inflorescences from females compared to male inflorescences (West and Golenberg, 2018).
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Furthermore, Heslop-Harrison (1956) provided evidences that the treatment of male diecious hemp with auxins showed the development of female flowers (Figure 4). In addition, expression analyses from floral meristems to study the differences in mRNA between male and female diecious hemp showed that mRNA involved in auxins were overexpressed in female plants (Moliterni et al., 2004). Auxins are phytohormones known to be involved in flower development (Hardtke and Berleth, 1998). Auxins regulate this process by controlling gene expression via transcription factors AUXIN RESPONSE FACTORS (ARF).
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It is likely that QTLSex_det1 contributes to regulate sex determination by controlling the expression of male and female inflorescences in a female genetic background, for example through downregulation of gai gene and/or downregulation of auxin response factor genes.
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They suggested that the repression of female characteristics implies the down-regulation of the genes involved in pathways more strictly regulated to the differentiation of the female sex.
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About sex determination, genes involved in regulating the balance of phytohormones gibberellic acid (GA) and auxins were identified. The alleles with positive effects of these sex QTLs were found to promote monecious phenotypes.

Bottom line is that hemp is fairly stable toward dioecious expression in nature, but also carries genes that regulate the hormonal responses. If a monecious plant self pollinates, then the genetics that produced the monecious plant in the first place are reinforced and will exist in most of the plants grown from its seeds.

I’ve read other articles that suggest that the degree to which a female plant produces male flowers (ie lots of male flowers vs just a few). And that is seems related to having multiple genes involved in these downregulation of hormonal pathways.

I’ll leave it with this:

The cross of normal females with dioecious plants yielded female plants almost exclusively. This shows that the monoecious plants have the genetic constitution xx, and that dioeciousness is dominant over monoeciousness. This dominance, however, is incomplete; in crosses between pure monoecious plants a small number of female plants arose. The monoecious plants with a very small number of male flowers in crosses with monoecious plants with an equal number of male and female flowers gave about 80% monoecious plants and only 17% female plants. The plants with the same number of female and of male flowers gave, in crosses with the same type of dioecious plants, a small percentage of females, a large percentage of monoecious plants, and a very few male flowering plants. The monoecious plants with a great number of male and a small number of female plants, crossed with the same type of monoecious plants, gave practically no female plants in their progeny, but the greatest number of male flowering plants with female habit. Because these male flowering plants with a female habit have arisen from crosses between two monoecious plants, they must also be xx plants.

From this observation, it is not entirely clear what you will find in your seeds. There is possibility to find normal, dioecious females, but if there are, then you will need to hunt for them and expect most of the females you grow to have some monoecious characteristics. But with enough time and effort, it seems possible that you can “breed them out”.

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what a time to be out of likes thanks @lefthandseeds going to have to read that thru.

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This ‘determined in the seeds’ mythology seeks to dispel the role of environment in favor of predetermined genetic factors (“chromosomal sex”), yet ignores through simplification the myriad connected genetic factors which are genes and assosciate alleles.

I observe a great deal of sexual stability in cannabis cultivars, as they have been steered through selection away from intersexual expressions; of which are only occasional, while hermaphroditism is rare.

In yearly sowings of hemp of some substantial populations, I have noticed from the same seed stock a great deal of environmental influence on final ratios in regard to expression of sex. A consistent seed stock planted at scale will reveal the inconsistencies in your fields, and the gender expression ratios under such specific influence is apparent; water table, soil compaction, mineral content, fungal/bacterial balance and how disturbed the soil is, sunlight angle and total exposure (DLI), etc. all have shown clear deviation from expected M:F ratios.

ie. 16,500 plants from seed over 14 acres shows a M:F ratio of 1:5 in fertile sunny loam, yet shows 3:10 in shaded bands by the outter perimeter of the farm and in newly disturbed soil without irrigation, we see 1:3, to nearer to 1:2 in heavily compacted strips (where truck and tractor tires have driven).

Sex in cannabis will be thoroughly understood in time. At the moment, there are many evidences which support contradictory conclusions. It is often the case that human desire for understanding begets creative explanation which may appeal to the reasonable mind, but is not always the truth of a nuanced matter.

I think you first clarified the issue best, in saying, “there may be genetically-linked inhibitions to the female hormones, causing monoecious expression.”

I would agree, and cheaply tack-on the converse and extrapolated assumptions: that there exist genetically-linked inhibitions and catalysts for female and male hormones, which of course we see influence M:F ratios of expression within the gene frequency of a population.

I just can’t abide by the rhetoric or claim: “We as breeders can assure gender in seed, regardless of where or how it is cultivated.”

For in the context of practical cultivation of plants, if one is to believe that gender is a predetermined factor borne within the seed, then all cultural errs and environmental unsuitability which may catalyze irregular gender (gene) expression or impair regular gender (gene) expression, then it becomes quite easy to blame the seed (and therefore breeder), before the farmer considers seriously his role in how it was sown and grown.

I’m of the opinion that a strong understanding of botany and an intimate relationship with plants–underpinned by keen observational skills and memory+documentation–leads to a greater influence over male to female ratios of sexual expression. I’m among many cultivators who will claim to have multiple means and techniques with which to steer gender reliably within our populations.

Love so much all the intelligent discourse! Thank you Left Hand Seeds for the kindly worded and thoughtful response. I appreciate your insights!

If there’s more you can share on cannabis gender or the original topic of saving intersex seed, please do. I’m excited to read your opinions and research! One of my favorite things to do is to spend time in the garden listening to other cultivators share their experiences (ie. podcasts/interviews/panels/lectures); adjacently enjoyed are the forums of Overgrow and other such great communities, which often captivate my attention far too long–and seemingly always after a good hoot.

-Dr. Zinko

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Thought I should quote this! When we chat gardening, we may distinguish between cultivator perspective and geneticist perspective.

The farmer concerns with measures of seeds planted, number of females shown, and financial impact of intersex trait expression; he cares about what goes in, and what comes out–and wants to purchase a high quality seed to ensure the results are favorable. In this realm, it does a disservice to preach, “the gender is predetermined”, for it dis-empowers the farmer and is not accurate to the reality of his capacity for influence.

The geneticist as any scholar concerns himself with the acquisition and classification of knowledge for posterity. Terms and distinctions prevent confusion and its consequent detriments to progress.

If we were electricians, we may be remiss to take advice from a plumber. As cultivators, we should work to import and integrate the findings of science, rather than to model our practical operations on the jargon of another field.

Composers and musicians may work together of course, and may further each other’s growth through elaboration; that is to say that cultivators may partner with geneticists, to form a common dialogue for each others’ benefit.

However, at this time, no such common dialogue or language is established; in 2021, industry collaboration between science and farmer has only begun to form in this recent decade, and with such persistent issues of legality and profit so intimately involved in the sharing and dissemination of cannabis research, it may perhaps take decades further before the findings of these collaborative efforts become accessible or popularized.

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Blimey as 'eck! There is evidence of pure gene-ious going on here.
Just proves that there’s no stopping technology and it’s progress in all ‘fields’…

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I grow very small numbers of plants so it’s more hit or miss for me than it is drawing conclusions from large numbers.

This year I had one full herm and two females with male traits that required attention. I probably grew 40(?) plants this year.

I think they were all genetic.

Ive also had plants under wicked outdoor light pollution that never Hermed so go figure.

All the best.

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I had a purple Kush reg hermie and it made a couple hundred seeds. They were all female and none hermied.
But I wouldn’t count on that always happening, I think I just got lucky.

Edit: WOW this is the second time today i posted on an old thread. I need to pay more attention I guess

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I’ve got a handful of herm seeds and late flower self seeds. I’m just gonna toss them in public areas, infront of government buildings and on the mayor’s lawn/garden.

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I had some (3/5 I grew that time) ILGM GSC extreme herm on me (who could have guessed such an esteemed supplier of cannabis genetics would do such a thing? :crazy_face:), I caught them early-ish, but I still got a few seeds on the other plants in the tent. I have the seeds but I have a feeling they’re going to end up in a bird feeder.

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I learned early that if the breeders not listed with seeds it’s probably bullshit.

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As long as threads have useful non outdated info it doesn’t matter if they are old or not and also give newest members an opportunity to read them … beer3|nullxnull

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Well the other things that are generally red flags for me when evaluating breeders (mostly if they charge premium prices):

Their catalog changes vastly from season to season

Not incorporating anything they’ve bred in the past into new offerings

Only/mostly offering varieties they haven’t bred or which are known to be bred by other breeders (especially if their descriptions differ greatly from those of the descriptions from the original breeder or other sources)

Incorporating lots of hype strains ASAP

Exclusively offering F1 crosses of those recently available strains (does not evince much testing before release), and no later filial generations or backcrosses

There can be reasonable explanations for some of these, but they’re all the kinds of things that make me much less likely to drop a bunch of money on seeds from these folks.

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Well, to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course, and without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective, and without being condemning of one’s views, and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and everyone’s valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say.

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Yes I’m only interested in landrace or heirlooms at this point.