Recirculating Ebb & Flow 💦

[SuperiorBuds]

@anon32470837 and I have spoke of the Amberlite ion-exchange resins in the past, so I figured now that my res ph is stable and the plants are getting a bit bigger it was time to break out a new toy…

PerfectpH: Original (70 Gal) | Torus Hydro

I went ahead and oversized by picking up the 70 gallon unit for my 35 gallon res. I’ve only been having to give a small squirt of pH down every few days lately to keep the pH in line, so I am going to drop this in tonight and over the next few days I’ll have some solid data on how this works…

[SuperiorBuds]

Day 14 from seed.

Over half the plants are looking much better with the recent changes to the ebb and flow cycles. I still have a few plants that are runts and not doing as well as the others, though. When I started I was having issues with the sprayers soaking the seedlings which caused some leaf burn and some of them just haven’t recovered.

The front-left plant in this photo is Jedi OG #4 and it’s a strange little mutant. The first two true leaves grew together and she seems to have topped herself, with multiple new grow nodes popping out the sides now. I’m keeping it alive for now just to see what happens.

This is Jedi OG #1 which has now grown high enough to avoid the spray.

This shot shows Jedi OG #1 and #2, then Roid Rage #1 and #2.

I’ll be keeping an eye on the runts in the coming days – if they don’t get much better it might be time to cut the losses and drop in replacements.

[SuperiorBuds]

When I dropped the Torus Hydro into the res I was sitting around 6.0 pH, slowly drifting up 0.1 every few days. Less than 24 hours later the pH has dropped down to 5.8 and has been stable since.

Here’s the graph from the Bluelab showing the drop. Don’t mind the missing data, I still have problems keeping the unit connected to the net, even though I have an extender. (Stupid log walls.)

It’ll be interesting to see if the pH stays stable at 5.8 or if it drifts like it’s supposed to do.

[anon32470837]

Very interesting find on the resin PH filter insert!! Its too $$$ for me, but Im very interested in seeing how this works out over time. Did you also get the restoration/recharge solution? Is the resin itself a fine powder or beads of some type or? Its hard to see in those pics.

Im also curious if the water flows through the beads or around the filter cartridge? Or are the beads in a seperate mesh bag inside the filter housing? If the water flows through the beads, does it reduce the flow much or do you have it in a bypass loop of some sort or? It looks like a standard filter for a Y type filter?

Sheesh I ask a lot of dam questions…

[SuperiorBuds]

@anon32470837

Did you also get the restoration/recharge solution?

Yes, I bought the 1 liter which is good for 4 recharges of the 70 gallon model.

@anon32470837

Is the resin itself a fine powder or beads of some type or?

Hard to tell. The unit itself is a fine mesh, much like I would have pulled out of my inline filter. I believe it has to be the beads inside.

@anon32470837

Im also curious if the water flows through the beads or around the filter cartridge? Or are the beads in a seperate mesh bag inside the filter housing? If the water flows through the beads, does it reduce the flow much or do you have it in a bypass loop of some sort or? It looks like a standard filter for a Y type filter?

I didn’t buy the inline version. I got “the original” so mine is just dropped directly into the reservoir.

I wanted the pH of my entire res to be maintained, not just the water going into the plants. This way my Bluelab Guardian will read the actual pH that the plants are being fed and not just the return water pH. With the aeration in my reservoir I figured enough water would move around past the beads to adjust things and so far it’s been spot-on.

Yesterday the pH finally drifted a bit, and was up to 5.9 for a bit. It’ll be interesting to see where she settles after a week or two.

[anon32470837]

Very interesting.

One thing that occurred to me back when we were first discussing the ion exchange resins, MES, and other buffers, was that they could potentially hide an underlying problem.

For example, if you have been using this chart to adjust EC levels, etc, but the resin cartridge is holding the PH steady when it normally would be rising or falling due to an incorrect EC level. Any thoughts on that aspect?

Or you could get root rot or some algae or bacterial infection that would normally send the PH UP/down, but the resin hides that?

I have no idea if that kind of thing would really be a problem or not, but it is worth considering maybe.

[SuperiorBuds]

From my experience the pH adjustments during problems are usually pretty drastic either way. My assumption is that the resin will not keep up with the pH flux during those issues, so it should still show up on the meter. The 24/7 data logging helps see what’s going on over time, so I am hoping to be able to catch anything pretty quick.

On top of that my res is now totally clear from the Jacks, so any discoloration or cloudiness will trigger a res change on my end.

Then again, this is all new (the system redesign, the nutrients, and the pH control) – so who knows.

[anon32470837]

@SuperiorBuds

From my experience the pH adjustments during problems are usually pretty drastic either way. My assumption is that the resin will not keep up with the pH flux during those issues, so it should still show up on the meter. The 24/7 data logging helps see what’s going on over time, so I am hoping to be able to catch anything pretty quick.

I think so too. Im sure you remember my experiences. The PH swings were very dramatic.

Still, it might be interesting to check the PH of the return water - before it gets back to the rez. You have sort of a double whammy with the buffering action of the Jacks plus the ion resin. I would be at least a bit paranoid of even small PH swings under those conditions.

Edit: Its possible your flood times may be too short to show up much of a change on any single flood cycle, so this may not be worth pursuing regularly. If it was me, Id still feel compelled to check it at least a few times, but I tend to be anal that way

[Northern_Loki]

@SuperiorBuds

My assumption is that the resin will not keep up with the pH flux during those issues

The resin I’ve played around with have been quite slow, so I’d tend to agree that any step changes should remain visible. Slower processes may be more or less hidden.

@anon32470837

buffering action of the Jacks

I’m not certain the difference in buffering capacity of Jack’s vs Megacrop. I’d surmise that the main difference in formulation is likely the inclusion of a variety organics, possibly some carbohydrates, in the Megacrop. Which may act as a food source for other stuff. I haven’t tried to disassemble the Jacks formulation, though, as there may be some organic chelates. We could consider titrating the Jack’s for edification. What say ye?

[SuperiorBuds]

@anon32470837

Still, it might be interesting to check the PH of the return water - before it gets back to the rez.

For sure, I can take a few samples later tonight and check. I am guessing there’s not much difference though.

@anon32470837

Its possible your flood times may be too short to show up much of a change on any single flood cycle, so this may not be worth pursuing regularly.

There was some interesting info in the little book they send along with the unit. Here’s some shots from “The perfectpH Bible” that explains a bit more about what’s required for this to work properly.

@Northern_Loki

I haven’t tried to disassemble the Jacks formulation, though

I believe that Greengene did a breakdown of everything that’s in Jacks. He has a spreadsheet someplace that shows quite a few different nutrient lines and their makeup.

@Northern_Loki

We could consider titrating the Jack’s for edification. What say ye?

That would be interesting for sure. I always love information.

[SuperiorBuds]

Forgot to say, we’re now 4 days into using the Torus Hydro and still no real change.

Initial pH was at 6.0 and it dropped to 5.8 over 24 hours. The last 24 hours it was sitting at 5.9 (shifting back to 5.8 every now and then on the Bluelab). Last night I topped off the res with fresh RO which is generally really high pH. The EC dropped back from 1.7 to 1.5 as I wanted, but the pH stayed stable at 5.9 with no shift. I’ll be watching closely over the next few days to see if we continue to stay in line or if it shifts at all.

[anon32470837]

@Northern_Loki

I’m not certain the difference in buffering capacity of Jack’s vs Megacrop. I’d surmise that the main difference in formulation is likely the inclusion of a variety organics, possibly some carbohydrates, in the Megacrop. Which may act as a food source for other stuff. I haven’t tried to disassemble the Jacks formulation, though, as there may be some organic chelates. We could consider titrating the Jack’s for edification. What say ye?

Ive been wondering the same things. I think it would be interesting, and potentially very useful info for others, to investigate this some more. I suspect you are correct about the organics being the key difference, but Id also like to see how the buffering compares to the other nutes, and buffers we have tested.

Should we do it in the original buffering thread to keep all that info together, or add it to the Jacks 321 thread? I lean towards doing it in the buffering thread with a link in the Jacks thread?

@SuperiorBuds

For sure, I can take a few samples later tonight and check. I am guessing there’s not much difference though.

Yeah, you might not see much difference until the roots get more established.

@SuperiorBuds

There was some interesting info in the little book they send along with the unit. Here’s some shots from “The perfectpH Bible” that explains a bit more about what’s required for this to work properly.

Interesting. That all seems to add up to the requirement for a relatively hi circulation rate through the resin for best results. Thats not really surprising. Your technique of keeping the rez circulating internally sounds just fine to me.

[Northern_Loki]

@anon32470837

Jacks 321

@SuperiorBuds

That would be interesting for sure.

Ok, I’ll put it on the agenda and will post into the buffer thread. Schedule permitting. Could one of you provide a standard formulation on the 321 to achieve an estimated 1.7EC in RO to match the MC trial. So I don’t have to go searching around for it, brain tired. Thanks.

[anon32470837]

Jacks Hydro (Updated) - Mixing, Dosing, and Stock Solution(1).pdf (74.1 KB)

Thats @Howard.Crane mixing directions that he says gives him around EC 1.4 IIRC. When I followed that plan, I ended up much higher - over EC 2.0, but its entirely possible I screwed it up somewhere.

Unfortunately, thats the best Ive got - which isnt very close to what you want.

I see that @SuperiorBuds is mixing his rez to EC 1,6, so he can tell you what his mixing ratio is.

[Howard.Crane]

I should revise that. It’s been updated since I originally wrote it, but I forgot to update that part. I’m getting around 1.6-1.7 EC with the revised formula and my municipal tap water.

[Northern_Loki]

@anon32470837

Thats @Howard.Crane mixing directions…

@Howard.Crane

I’m getting around 1.6-1.7 EC with the revised formula

Cool, thanks guys. This’ll get me close. You’ve saved me from an aneurysm.

[SuperiorBuds]

A little added peace of mind today…

[cannabissequoia]

Hey hydro people

Sorry to divert but would y’all mind looking at another OGer’s plants?

Durban Poison x Red Cherry Berry - Ebb&Flow

Hey bro @cannabissequoia, I’m trying your strain again. My friend here gave me 3 clones from a plant that I had give to him when I was vegging my last round My cellphone camera got die and I’m not upgrading here because I can't take pics I’m having the same problem now when I start 12/12h (1 week complete today). My friend took some pics and i dont know if you or other member had this problem and if somebody can help me to solve it [image][image][image][image][image][image]

thanks

[SuperiorBuds]

Been a while since I’ve updated but there really hasn’t been much to talk about.

On Nov 25th I got the sex tests back from Farmer Freeman, only a few short days after they were submitted.

Turned out we had a great ratio of M to F. The boys were culled and fed to the chickens, along with one of the girls that was mutated and not looking great.

The 3 empty buckets were now replaced with female Clown Slippers from Subcool. They’ll be behind the others, but that’s ok.

The pH has been rather stable and I haven’t changed the res since it was filled on Nov 1st. I’ve added fresh RO weekly to top off the reservoir, and twice now I’ve mixed up concentrated batches of nutrients to add in. Not a single drop of pH up or down has been used to this point and the res is still crystal clear.

The pH drifts up and down between 5.8 and 6.2, I don’t think I’ve seen it out of range since adding the Torus Hydro unit.

(Excuse the dropouts on the graphs, Bluelab Connect units really suck.)

I’ve been topping and training and overall just playing with the plants up to this point.

The system as a whole is working well so far. I had some algae growing on the hydroton before the plants were big enough to shade it out, but it has never caused issues in the past so I didn’t worry too much about it. I do need to figure out a new system for starting seeds before exposing them to the big system. The seedlings just cannot handle the mist from the sprayers so I’ve been using plastic cups to keep them protected until they are big enough.

I’ve also started live streaming from the garden 24/7 over on Twitch.

I have some overlays I’m working on that pulls live data from the SensorPush and BlueLab Connect units for display in the stream. I just have to finish porting the VPD code from @Northern_Loki later tonight.

[anon32470837]

Awesome stuff man! They look very happy.

So, are you using Jacks now? With some additives?

I was going to ask you earlier about the sprayers but I forgot. So you are spraying the nute water down on top of the hydroton in the buckets? Thats a departure from “normal” flood drain table setup. Im not too surprised you would get algae doing that as the hydroton will be much wetter up top. Im curious why you chose that technique over the more normal flooding method? Is it the extra aeration you get or?

I still hate you because you make me look bad. Awesome stuff!!!