I like ur 300 number really…even if the parents are poly that’s a great gene pool right?
My 300 number is really 100-300, and for preservation.
In the same post as when I mention 300, I also say that you don’t need that many to move a line forward, 30-50 will get you there, np 
I disregard if it’s poly, multi hyb smash-up, first run, I’ll op the line…
Re multi poly hybrids f2s: In one way, it’s a good thing. Sure, no 2 plants will be alike, but on the plus side, no 2 plants will be alike 
2 Likes
I think it was faceguy that touched on it…you can stay in f3 for a long time really looking…selfing…it’s academic to speak past f5 beyond commercial reasons. You want that wacky one hitter you will want the wildness.
1 Like
That is an interesting post… Thanks
Cheers
G
1 Like
From what I could gather this phenomenon is more frequent in the first few recombination.
Is there any way to put a ratio on that, what would the maths be like ?
An allele frequency is calculated by dividing the number of times the allele of interest is observed in a population by the total number of copies of all the alleles at that particular genetic locus in the population . Allele frequencies can be represented as a decimal, a percentage, or a fraction.
This is where i think you might find your trans seg
Selfing will help with calcs, as per the above selfing scheme. Cuz youll have less allele combinations. That’s why i hammer punnet squares, you guys can literally visualize the potential complexity, even extrapolate those offspring with genetic variant possibilities
…i need coffee
2 Likes
I’m merely offering knowledge and thoughts on the subject. Not step by step how I do things. Please don’t assume what you don’t know. I grow medicine for my wife and I and that’s it. I don’t grow outdoors, nor do I clam anything I make is good to grow outdoors. Its not even legal to grow outdoors where I live. If I do make beans I document everything for all to see and share the resulting beans, usually right here, for free. I don’t charge for anything so I don’t know where that’s coming from. If you check my history you’d know I don’t run some big operation. I grow out of a couple tents to keep my pain at bay. I do what I can and share what I have.
I’m merely stating males can be quantified the same way females can and negating their inherent qualities, for whatever reason, is likely detrimental to most anyone’s breeding strategies.
We’re breeding for entirely different purposes. You can have uniformity at f2 and f3 with the correct selections if that’s what you want. It’s all about goals.
8 Likes
Oh and by the way if you guys* ever see tonygreen from tortured beans come in…bow ur heads plz and dont snap back at his genetic responses
Edit, missed word
2 Likes
Trying to understand that image lol…
Is he saying:
- Cross A to B
- Backcross to A
- Run 30 of the backcross
- Keep maybe 4 or however many
- You might find 1 of the 4 that “selfs well”
- This can be parent 1
- Parent 2 can be found in f2 but also should self well
?
What does it mean to “self well” ?
Is parent 2 supposed to have the good stuff from B since parent 1 will be more like A?
2 Likes
I follow tony on IG and every once in a while he’ll get in a fight with someone on breeding…and he just does this scorched earth campaign on them lol…that’s how i know he knows what he knows
2 Likes
This is my experience and it have worked Great for me so far. Remember, im not trying to preach how you should do something. I pop 30 - 40 seeds. Kill everything that doesnt veg well(its because this was my livelyhood) self all remaining plants that stood out to me. Send material for testing. Grow out seeds for the best plant. Repeat until you reach S3. The cross it with another S3 and you get huge vigours plants
8 Likes
Im not sure on this, but are quite afew people under the impression maintaining something by open pollination is a way round inbreeding depression. Probably is if your in a open field with a few 1000 plants.
Or if you employ certain techs that i hardly see people use.
So you might start to wonder why this works the way it does. Well at S1 XX and XX will start to recombine If the plant got alot of good Dominant genes these will still express itself for 75% of the plant. If your plant have good Recessive genes, these will show at 25% of the plants. At S2 you will have 25% pretty much exact copy of the S1 plant you selfed with less vigor. When you are finaly at S3 every single plant will show the traits you choose at S1 with less vigor. Its important to be able to choose plants based on traits and not vigor. The vigor will be 90% lost at S1. Since i worked with crossing CBD and CBG strains to THC strains, i had to test for different potency. But in S3 my seed would be around the same potency as my S1 Selection, only smaller buds with less side growth and less height. English isnt my firat language so i hope you are able to follow this 
The F1 seeds i made was always awesome, never had something that was disapointing. There where a few that didnt turn out as expected. But i always saves pollen in the freezer and I tried different crosses until i found what i wanted and made S3s with that and saved cutting for production purposes.
6 Likes
No worries…
You are doing brilliantly. 
Cheers
G
4 Likes
Yes, pretty much 
Cross A to B
Backcross to A(if you like A more)
Run 30 bc1 at a time
You keep superior plants as cuts, in this example there are 4 more interesting plants out of 30.
You then self each of the 4 superior plants, and run 30 from each mother.
Now the selfs well.
Out of these 4 lots, chances are most will segregate like crazy, plants don’t look like one another and aren’t up to par either.
But 1 of the 4, may give you much more stable progeny with 20 high quality plants out of the 30.
This one selfs well, progeny is great.
Usually when a plant selfs well she’s a great crosser/outcrosser
The other parents can be looked for in the f2 instead of the bc1, the same selfing technique would be use to find a good crosser.
Hope this helps 
2 Likes
You are correct, you cant preserve something in seed form, so that makes it impossible to maintain. Open pollinated runs is good for outdoor grows where you want to make lots of money. Thats why most heirlom strains was invented this way. The farmers wanted to make more and more hash or ganja each year. They planted the seeds from the best growing plants and hoped next year would be better. Its interesting that marocco and libanon is known for thier hash. The interesting thing is that both marocco and libanon can go with 3 runs each year and that would make 3 improvements every year. While neapal only got one run every year.
4 Likes
I think by “selfs well” that means the progeny are similar to the parent. These would be homozygous for the desired traits.
6 Likes
Ok great thanks, that clarifies
I imagine the initial cross is just the best plant you have of each?
Thanks for the clarification! Interesting idea overall, I wonder if that’s what Tom does himself 
1 Like
I dont think you even have to do the backcross. The segregation will show up in the S1 lineup and most of us have experience running S1 seeds from bank and we know how they will segregate within the same genome
3 Likes
He said it would work, but that He havnt made seeds this way him self
2 Likes