All I’m saying is if you are really looking for that unicorn riding a dragon or whatever you might want to use your males they just got more allials/ colors to choose from it’s like everytime you self you get a smaller box of crayons and I understand the time thing and space issues because I have them too it’s just in my breeding projects I want that unicorn 
thingy lol that’s so I want the biggest box of crayons I can muster cuz if not you are just shorting your self I’m not judging or hateing do what you do
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As you can see from that papper i linked about i clearly states that you got 1 gender chromosome pair and 9 autonomes that are split between the parents. Everything is 50/50… The P1(female) also got 50/50 from its parents and the P2(male) also got 50/50 from its parents. So the offspring from these parents are no different then If the P2 had the same autonomes but with an X gender chromosome. The automones are the majority of the genome and as started in this article.
6/10 of the chromosomes had some degree of effect om the cannabinoid production. That means that the autonome pairs that form the chromosomes are directly linked to the production of thc. With this conclusion you will notice that it doesnt matter If you got a male or female, since the autonoms have nothing to do with gender att all. So you statement are not based on reality and crossing two different cultivars doesnt become any more prone for unicorns because of males vs females.
You talk about epigenetics… If you read the very first sentence on wiki about it, it says “In biology, epigenetics is the study of heritable phenotype changes that do not involve alterations in the DNA sequence”. No alterations to the dna. This means that the dna stays intact and still are passed off to the offspring. If you want to read more about epigenetics, this is the link to the wiki: Epigenetics - Wikipedia
As I said before, im not discussing this because of judging or hating. Im here to educate from what ive learned, im not trying to be a smarty pants or what ever you think is funny and Im also here to learn myself. I dont know everything and i know there are alot of people on this forum that can teach me more about cannabis and planta in general. I try to have an open mind, i hope im not being to harsh.
Pz 
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Also want to add to the topic of epigenetics this paper so that If one want to understand what its all about in plants on a deeper level they are able to get some great data and read about it.
Pz
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I have to tell you something…
You learned a bunch, and honestly, know your shit… but still get a “new money” vibe about you…
I had to stop reading and comment.
(I post this in light heartedness, just feel chatty, and again on that jungle weed)
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@LonelyOC - I think we’re at a time in human history where our understanding of some things is truly astounding. I did not understand how it was possible but now I do. Thanks for educating us how this works. Those papers and citations definitely help too, because it explains in more detail exactly what you’re saying, which is toned down for us laymans. 
Here’s a question in regards to potency, since to some degree there’s still a lot of unknowns with cannabis. Are true F1 superhybrids (those from 1 wildly different homozygous parents) able to be more potent than say F2 or F3 generation? I know that true F1 hybrids are rare, and there just aren’t enough people like Tony Green who did that with Gorilla Glue RIL making true F1 hybrids in the market. It would seem to be that an elite that breeds more elite (25%+ THC) is still going to be more beneficial than an F1 hybrid from parents who’s THC only gets to 15%.
As a mutant lover, I’ve pondered and pondered and pondered how exactly I could get an F1 hybrid mutant. Since it’s recessive, the only way to get it to show up in the F1 generation is insure that the P1 and P2 parents both possess the same recessive trait, but they also have to be wildly different from each other at the same time. I thought about a pedigree similar to GG RIL where you split the line into two, and then recombine them… would that work for my mutants?
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Hahaha thank you 
I wish i had new money. Damn what i would do fun stuff for the rest of my life. 
In all seriouness, alot of new money people probably took classes based on the same books i had to pull myself through and did exams on the same datasets. So im not surprised at all. When i was in jail i thought so much about this. That i realized in a way how lucky ive been to have done such crazy ride and still got a low sentence. All the people ive met and helped. All the flower produced. Living a double life together with my girl friend who was my partner in crime. It all started from forums like this that i stayed upp all night reading as a kiddy wickle, having fantasys about being the best breeder in the world. 
I thought that i have to help spread knowledge and seeds. I cant just take and not participate, so now when i back in business, this is my goal. Learn, breed, help, repeat.
@crunkyeah Yes, ive probably never tested a 100% true F1 where both parents have totally mirrored autonome pairings. But ive tried plants with high hybrid vigor and yes, everything on the plant is taken towards an “extreme” in a sense. Growth, terps, cannabinoid production, etc. This is the old school way of breeding and cultivars with hybrid vigor was the cream of the crop. I THINK we all would benefit greatly from this line of thinking and let go of the poly hybrid idea and If you listen to Riot seeds podcast with notso, they seems to think the same way. That the old way of doing stuff that layed the bricks for the ground we stand on today, is gone and its something bad.
Yes yes yes, a ril in your case would be a good way to ensure a Double Recessive trait. Good thinking, i love that 
i have a faint memory of a ducksfoot type strain on icmag doing this with success. Ill see If I can find it for you.
I think tonygreen went to bx6 If I remember correctly which would take around 2 years.
Pz 
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Have you actually tested it in the field? Because, in my experience yes the s1 seems to be better or justas good but I’llonce you get to see, st ,ECT… It starts losing quality and it’s quite dramatic and I’m not saying it’s something I read in some paper I’ve test 5 separate cultivars and each one at about s2-s3 it starts losing quality, vigor, and resistances each time it and also keep in mind that some of them papers/study’s are theory, so you have to test it in the field, if it was easy everybody would be doing it but it’s not sadly… And my conclusion is that those extra allials that the male holds are necessary for a complete gnome, it’s like intentionally giving your kids down syndrome or something lol all so keep in mind that propaganda is real and big ag, phylos, Monsanto, ECT wants us to fail and is willing to pay billions of $ if that’s what it takes but if all they got to do is put out a Cole papers and we just do it to ourselves so all I’m saying is please test this stuff in the field before putting it out there as gospel and I’m not trying to be a dooshbag that’s just my experience I mean no disrespect
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No you are right. You shouldnt talk the talk If you havent walk the walk.
Yes ive been breeding alot with both styles and they are different tools with different strength and weaknesses. Yes, you are right that alot of unwanted Recessive traits show in S2 and beyond. Thats why you need the same breeding protocols for using selfing as a metod, just as you have to with BXing. When you BX youll notice the same Recessive traits pop up after a while and its what happends when something starts to be really inbred. As you probably already know. If you keep testing and selecting you will end up with a good result when finally outcrossing and the hybrid vigor will return. We have other breeders at the forum using the same type of self to outcross breeding with Great results, so its not just me being crazy, even though it might seem like that 
Hope you have a wonderful day and keep caring for your loved ones.
Pz
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Inbreeding depression is loosely another term for filial degeneration. What a lot of people need to realize that if there are any undesirable traits in the cultivar you are growing they will just show up faster usually if you Self the plant. Inbreeding does not ruin or cause damage to the DNA just throws combos that normally wouldn’t show up from less intensive line-breeding. Here is a question, what happens if you self a male?
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Hey @LonelyOC i really appreciate you trying your best to help us understand but alot of this is too complicated if you are not already familiar like you have said. Thanks for having patience. We are learning dont worry. Your efforts are not in vain. Just wanting to send out some positive vibes to you and keep the good info comming!
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Selfing males result in 33% females and 66% males. If you look at the math it should be 25% XX 50% XY and 25% YY. But embryos with YY can develop so they die. What you end up in seeds is what i first stated.
Whats interesting about reversing males ar the all the females offspring will have mirror X chromosomes and If you have a trait or mutation you like in the X chromosome, selfing a male with it will give females who always have this trait. 
I think thats pretty cool.
Btw If you reverse males, dont become worried about them looking weird. They will have male structure, but will buds
Pz
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Thank you very very much
Pz
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Random breeding observation.
First gen breaks down as tree, bush, runt, and the plant that tops itself early naturally.
Select bush.
grow bush.
Next-gen breaks down as tree, bush, runt, and the plant that tops itself early naturally.
Select bush.
Grow bush.
Next-gen breaks down as tree, bush, runt, and the plant that tops itself early naturally.
I will let you know how the next one goes. lol
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It goes like this:
Tree ignores bush, bush chokes out runt, plant that tops itself early feeds off the dead runt….
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So no viable YY from the cross or did I get that wrong? I wonder what a YY looks like compared to the rest? Taller,faster maturing, ??? That scenario is somewhat interesting I think in that you would definitely have the start of an IBL within 3-4 generations of vigorous selections…
I currently have a nice Thai male. that I tried barely had run it long enough to produce some pollen. I put it back in veg and returned to vegetative state within couple weeks. Tried a top before putting it under 17 hrs of light. The smoke was a little harsh but it gave me a little buzz which was surprising. This is where the idea to self it came from.I was going to do this on another male I had but lost it.
Yeah, YY wont produce a seed. But i agree with you that it would be very interesting to observe one 
Pz
While doing some other research I came across this and why I think your example is flawed:
https://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/the-sex-of-offspring-is-determined-by-6524953/
Birds have a reverse sex-chromosome setup compared to most other things. Instead of males being XY and females being XX, In birds male’s have ZZ while females have ZW.
That is most likely why male birds are more colorful than the females. It is not due to “heavier selection” or something else. it is entirely due to the males having the doubled chromosome and therefore more genes to work with. Pretty much any gender with double’d up sex chromosomes are more colorful/attractive regardless of whether it be a bird, animal, or plant.
I was originally trying to see if there were any differences in the X chromosome between males and females but I’ve so far come up with nothing 
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YY won’t produce seed but will it produce pollen? I think if YY produces pollen then can it be used on a female to produce seeds? Do you know of anyone who has reversed a male? Chimera talked about it but didn’t get past the process of how to do it with florel.
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No I’m pretty sure he means any seed created from a reversed male that comes out as YY, will not sprout. So no one will never ever see what a YY male looks like because they will never sprout from the seed that were born with. They need at least one X chromosome to grow.
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Then we have established that the Y chromosome is incomplete for producing viable pollen and needs an x for proper pollen production. Are there any papers that document this HA? Not putting any shade on you just would love to read anything on this topic!
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