A Layman Looks at the Electric

Growroom Design
#21

One item that tends to get overlooked…

The problem with going higher than 80% capacity is the most common breakers in panels are thermal, and breakers are normally stacked horizontally in a panel.
Thermal breakers get warm when current is ‘heavy’ and they warm up the breakers above (and below) them. This added heat can cause ‘nuisance’ trips in the panel, even though no load exceeds maximum rating.
Needless to say, these nuisance trips are something which we really don’t want in our growrooms.

Cheers
G

6 Likes
#22

All modern residential breakers have both thermal and magnetic trip mechanisms. GFCI/AFCI they have additional tripping mechanisms.

If you have loaded a circuit up to the point that the heat within that breaker is causing the breakers above and below to trip, but not tripping the “grow room” breaker then you have bigger problems. The “grow room” breaker should trip itself, well before it affects other breakers, if the load is causing too much heat (overload) or magnetism (over current/short circuit). If this is happening you should call in a professional to look at your panel.

I did not mean to come off as cavalier earlier when talking about loading circuits above 80%. These rules do exist for a reason and I recommend everyone follow the electrical code of your region.

6 Likes
#23

I tapped into the panel and ran a 15 amp circuit specifically for the lighting in the veg room. Also took a range wire, and ran 240 into the bloom room. I put the 220/40 volt into a dryer plugin that I plugged a distribution sub panel on that has separate 15amp breakers for each light. I like to have the lights on their own circuit!
EDIT: get the electrical code simplified book and follow it closely :slight_smile:

4 Likes
#24

It is a forum read the world over and not every country has a good regulatory system. This is a grow forum and I would not expect that it is beyond the pale for someone to be wiring ballast lighting with the circuits loaded and have a 3 phase supply in the world of guerilla greenhouses and underground growing.

No I would not expect anyone to encounter this usiing a licensed electrician or in an inspected electrical installation.

1 Like
#25

The linear current completes only 2 cycles in the same time period that the non-linear neutral current completes 6 cycles or 3 times the fundamental.

Often, in new construction this situation is addressed by simply doubling the neutral conductor ampacity.

#26

Yes, it is true. I did not specifically cater my advice to include every single electrical growing scenario that exists in the world. To those people running 3 phase gorilla grows please disregard my comments…

#27

Like I already said to you in DM, if you wanna argue about the dangers of an incredibly common type of wiring please come back to me with new information that’s relevant, not just copy and paste from a google search on harmonics. Even the first sentence begins with…Sinusoidal currents on the phases of a 3-phase, 4- wire system…

We are talking about small LED lights in a house not a massive 3 phase installation. The differences should be obvious.

While you’re looking go refer to the Canadian Electrical Code for the actual rule pertaining to Neutral conductors and ballast lighting. See 2, a, i, ii

Be 4-018 Size of neutral conductor (see Appendix B)

  1. The neutral conductor shall have sufficient ampacity to carry the unbalanced load.
  2. The maximum unbalanced load shall be the maximum connected load between the neutral and
    any one ungrounded conductor as determined by Section 8 but subject to the following:
    a) there shall be no reduction in the size of the neutral for that portion of the load that consists
    of
    i) electric-discharge lighting; or
    ii) non-linear loads supplied from a three-phase, 4-wire system;
3 Likes
#28

Tell that to the guys rented a warehouse back in the day running lighting for underground grows.

Not every scenario plays out like you think it should

1 Like
#29

and btw even in the scenario where the oversized neutral is required the load is ‘balanced’

#30

I don’t even know what your are talking about now dude. Nobody said anything about a warehouse or any of the other nonsense you are talking about. You said “ sharing a neutral is dangerous because of harmonics” I said “prove it because the Canadian Electrical code says your wrong”

So far all you’ve shown me is a google search and a story about the warehouses that may or may not have burned down back in the day.

If you have something relevant and scientific that supports your argument that 3 wire is dangerous with one or two LED lights I would genuinely like to read it but otherwise you haven’t swayed me at all so far.

2 Likes
#31

now you are putting words in my mouth. After the whole dm thing I am done with this

#32

Again form the code. This time appendix B - Rule 4-018 2)
Examples of non-linear loads include dimmers, computers, microprocessors, and most other electronic loads.

By your logic, every time I have put a dimmer on a lighting circuit or plugged in my computer on a circuit that shares a neutral I’ve created a dangerous amount of harmonic distortion.? Does this sound right to you?

1 Like
#33

Ok, sorry, what is your point then? If it’s not dangerous, meets code and is installed in every home I’ve ever worked on?

#34

The DM thing where I didn’t agree with you and politely asked for evidence of your claims?

1 Like
#35

Hey @Loggershands good info,

Experts: what is the scoop on the 50hz vs 60hz compatibility for devices? Do hair dryers plugged into the wrong socket, really self ignite ???

Seeking enlightenment,
-Grouchy

4 Likes
#36

Hz matter mate! The device should say if it’s rated for 50 or 60 (sometimes both) but don’t plug your 50hz into your North American socket, you will burn up that bad boy.

2 Likes
#37

I am not one either but this is what I was told by one doing the house.
20 amp 12 gauge for outlets
15 amp 14 gauge for lights

1 Like
#38

I worked a hospital remodel in 1989, Journeyman electrician asked me to help him pull wire in a run. I looked at it and said you need another junction box. (Nevermind at the time I am a 3rd year helper.) They tried to pull it anyway since he was a ‘licensed’ guy. And he was correct there were only 3- 90’s in the run. But he had a 4 point saddle in the run too. More than 360 degrees. Seems he was mainly a romex jockey.

The junction box got cut in where I suggested it.

1 Like
#39

Wow, this thread got deep quick! Glad to see some folks with experience and expertise lending a hand. I definitely have a jumping off point for talking to any contractors that come through now, and feel pretty good for the meanwhile that we haven’t overloaded anything.
I guess more generally, what if any modifications or upgrades has everyone made to accommodate growing, as far as electrics and safety there of are concerned? Got some of that discussion goin already with mention of independent breakers for lights and the lot.
Also, I’ve heard most modern LEDs are sensitive to the supplied voltage and get more efficient with different outlet types? Is it that big of a difference, or fairly small for most fixtures?
Stay up!
Coffin_Dodger
:ghost: :raccoon:

1 Like
#40

$550 and four hours of searching for the problem later and it’s fixed! Now to wonder about expanding that breaker box a little later on… hahaha.
Coffin_Dodger
:ghost: :raccoon:

1 Like