F6 and beyond: Good or Bad Idea?

[Fuel]

Do cannabis plants have the genetic equivalent of Red Hair that you can automatically identify as recessive, with enough experience?

Absolutely, but it’s more a matter of personnal “culture” and knowledge of the classics than anything else imho. When you have played with three or four different source of classic Nothern Light (it’s an example), you known how it’s shitty to keep her on the boat. So you can evaluate fast later how many work will ask an hyrbid with it, depending on the goal of course. But to spot too from where come this little hint in the structure of the plant, the taste … classics are not so numerous and have all theyr specific signatures. No matter the legends turning around the genetic than you push, you quickly turn around the same well known basis (classics).

Now let me soak this lol

[chunk]

May I ask what the whole F1-2-3 thing means, ive tried to look it up and couldn’t figure it out. I’ve only been growing for 2 years and feel like I should know this by now. If anyone would be kind enough to explain that would be cool.

[Ftlob]

Hey brother, these guys are way above my head, but what I can understand I find fascinating and it’s been almost 20 years ago when I studied it for a bit I believe the parent stock would be P1 and P2,mom and dad F1,F2,and so forth are each generation after, and then their is selfing S1 and I’m spent at that, hope I didn’t mess you up to much hehe, cheers
@chunk
F-filial

[chunk]

Ahh okay, I see. Thanks for that man appreciate it!

[Ftlob]

Sorry I edited it, damn auto correct

[McMuffin]

@chunk take a read on this thread and see if it makes any sense. Lots of good information; it might seem like too much at first but just keep going back to it and will will start to make sense. There’s also the GrowFAQs. It’s funny that something so simple in concept can be so confusing. Just when I think I have it down…BAM! Back to the books.

Why would some cross an F5 with an F2?

@99PerCent, that would make sense. I was reading this GrowFAQ: The writer, @SubCool, confused the living hell out of me. He stated this: These statement leads me to believe that the F2 doesn't need to involve an original parent, just a breeding of 2 F1 offspring. This makes a lot of sense to me. Wouldn't the breeding using the original parents be an IBL? Shouldn't the designation be IBL F2 for a second generation using an original parent? It also leads me to believe that an F2 i…

[ReikoX]

@McMuffin

Do cannabis plants have the genetic equivalent of Red Hair that you can automatically identify as recessive, with enough experience?

Sure, the auto flowering trait. I guess that makes autos the red-headed-stepchild in the cannabis world.

[McMuffin]

Learn something new every day! I didn’t know the autoflowering gene was recessive. Good to know, even though I will most likely never include autoflower in any breeding project. It’s come a long way from being “Russian ditch weed” though.

Any other known recessives?

[Fuel]

The ECSD structure, the enormous calyx of the Cheese, the cloning performance of the Critical Bilbo … etc etc ^^

Some “signature” of specimens are exceptionnal in regard of theyr inherent pedigree, because they are generally a specific domino of traits that are not dependent of a specific work behind. By that i mean “stabilized” and more resistant to an outcross.

I think than i’m guessing what you are asking specifically, and imho you will find your answers more in the labs with specific markers and genome mappings. I’m personnaly not in this vein, i’m loving too much the empiric approach of the farmer lol

You’re rude with the ruderalis hybrids lovers ^^ Reikox work on it and as far as i’ve saw, he want to do it the better he can.

It’s the type of discussion to keep for cups, when nuggets are on the table. I say that sincerely.

[McMuffin]

No disrespect intended toward @ReikoX. While I hold the opinion that I do and have no intentions to experiment with autoflowers, I do respect other people’s work in bringing autflowers to the level they are at now. I’ve argued with @fishdude about it many times, just for the sake of arguing mainly, but in the end the fact remains that Mephisto and other great breeders have done some spectacular work in the autoflower field.

Autos aren’t my thing though.

[lunchpale]

Oops posted where I shouldn’t have, sorry.

[ReikoX]

Autos are not for everyone. They are a niche, and very few people grow autos exclusively. They are great for a corner in veg or an early/late outdoor harvest. The point was, simply, that it is a classic recessive trait.

[anon4675195]

An inbred line is specifically a lineage that is effectively homozygous across all loci. You may be able to obtain this in an F6 or F7 if you are selfing a line (so S6 or S7). In regular sex plants this takes 20 generations or more of full sibling crosses.

An open pollinated line may breed true for certain traits, but is more like a heterozygous population of individuals where genes are in Harvey-Weinberg equilibrium (assuming appropriately sized breeding population). OPs can rarely be considered true inbreds, though they may breed true for type characters.

What DJ short is alluding to is inbreeding depression. Cannabis is an out crossing species. Therefore it is prone to inbreeding depression in highly inbred lines which accumulate deleterious alleles. It may be possible to have highly vigorous and productive inbred lines if you avoid accumulating deleterious alleles. To do this you need very high numbers of lines being tested as most inbred lines will accumulate negative traits (this points to the reason why inbred lines are developed for production of hybrids, thereby restoring heterosis and hybrid vigor in F1 hybrid plants).

Also, with no disrespect to the man, DJ Short has some interesting breeding ideas in his book that I would list as old timer lore, not breeding science. So read it with a grain of salt.

[Fuel]

Nice input.

But i don’t specially agree than creating an inbred line must end 100% homozygous in all loci ^^ Specially when you have to spend so much money in sequencing at each step, to confirm them in the breeding plan. I respect the point of view and your very high level of incomes but it can be also to only stabilize rightly the main alleles concerned by an humble goal. Like, basically, to obtain a “blue/euphoric” weed in an empiric and cheap way.

[anon4675195]

That is the literal definition:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/biochemistry-genetics-and-molecular-biology/inbred-strain

You don’t need to sequence each generation. Homozygosity increases mathematically.

Uploading…
*from Walter Fehr’s Principals of Cultivar Development vol.1

[Fuel]

It’s very more clear like that, your ruderalis grow op is impressive. To evaluate the cost of the breeding involved in it just in DNA samples was just … pharaonic. But not impossible at all, if banks and big investors follow your project. Dronkers don’t do that for Hempflax, so i was curious.

Thanks for the definition, but it was more the 100% that was itching me. And your guaranteed to win, maybe it’s the effect of the translation but at first glance it look like magical ^^

No big deal, it’s just than as an human, i’m a factor of trouble by definition in the breeding plan than can’t be quantified. I’m able to read statistical equation, but i known also what is a coefficient. It’s the “leverage of something”, just like notes in school or CX with aerodynamism.

So yes, i doubt than just selfing over and over the GG4 will give me the only working homozygous version of the globe, even within 10 generations. And eventually, make me one of the most rich breeder of the game ^^ GG4 or whatever trendy cut, off course. But to obtain something than no one want to grow in S6, yes i’m sure on it ^^

I will read this book this night with attention btw: Principles of Cultivar Development: Theory and Technique, Walter Fehr, Iowa State University, 1991

Walter Fehr look specialized in soy bean. If i’m enough lucky, i will integrate it in the WIP Breeding references, the preface sound very less like a snake oil.

This one look promising also, i will give it a shot too (it’s not the same than the scans shared by GrowingHigher, another one): Hybridization of Crop Plants, Walter Fehr & Henry H. Adley, 1980

Maybe in these books i will find the snake oil to write the history of cannabis, like have done DJ Short for decades with his blueberry. Or not ^^

[McMuffin]

I just picked up Selection Methods In Plant Breeding and I feel like it’s wayyyy over my head, but I’m going to keep reading it until it starts making sense.

It’s on special for $9.99 until August 17, normal price $279.

[anon4675195]

Where is it for sale for 9.99?

[anon4675195]

I am not sure what you are saying here. I think I am loosing something in the language.

That Fehr book is the same book I scanned.

[McMuffin]

Follow the link I posted and look at the top of the page.

You can either click on that link and then go back to the page I linked or just enter the coupon code PROTOCOLS18