FieldEffect's Attempt to Grow Indoors

I have a relative in the water utility company, I’ll be seeing him for Christmas dinner. I’ll chat with him about a flush.

I’m also looking at different RO solutions. I’d use it for coffee and drinking water too, may as well do it right once. Classic situation for me, aim to do one thing somehow 5 different things get handled :rofl:

I entertained a simpler solution but I’m not going to wind up saving money long-term so I’ll just bite the bullet.

Still reading about it all and pondering all the advice. Appreciate the input @Fuel @Dirt_Wizard @noknees

We have hatchlings :sunglasses:

I’ll get them into Root Riots in a few hours. It worked! I shouldn’t be surprised but it’s exciting to see these dubiously produced beans sprout roots!

Merry Christmas guys.

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Merry Christmas @FieldEffect :santa: :vulcan_salute:

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You and @breadwinner would probably get along well.

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We remodeled our kitchen during COVID quarantine. We installed an iSpring RO500 tankless system under the kitchen sink. It’s great! We drink it, make ice cubes, and feed the espresso machine. I don’t use it in the garden though. My municipal water is decent enough (it just needs some pHdown), and I don’t want the hassle of hauling buckets up and down stairs, plus having to rebuild the water chemistry since the RO water is so stripped down. I always have the option of using the filtered water if the municipal supply encounters fluctuations…

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We had built a DIY RO system awhile ago. It worked OK. But it was still a slow producer to me. So, as time went on we made modifications and purchased high pressure pumps to improve the membrane efficiency. Then, buffering the output with a diaphragm storage tank. And so on.

Tradeoff is that the membranes needs to be flushed more often, keeping the system sanitary took time, lots of manual intervention … but we were producing more product.

Although, with little being automated, waste was high and it just became a real PITA over time.

We ended up purchasing a larger and self-contained RO system at auction. It’s the type of system used by laboratories, photographic development processors, and so on.

We set-aside some space in a basement corner and ran a couple of poly lines leading to taps. This allows us to use the RO for consumption, gardening, cooking, and whatever else.

The RO system has a couple of loops. A generation loop and the consumption loop. The generation loop dumps the output product into a 30 gallon buffer tank. A distribution pump pressurizes the output line/ The pump turns on whenever there is a pressure drop (someone opens a tap). The regeneration loop turns on whenever the RO tank level drops below a predetermined set-point.

The system also has a bunch of automation to include automatic flushing and sanitization cycles. UV-C lamps in several locations within the system minimization/eliminates biological infection. Etc.

With that in place, we don’t really have to do much of anything beyond replacing filters every so often, doing a system sanitization, etc. Workload is reduced to checks and maintenance a couple of times per years or thereabouts.

With a the non-automated system, technically we should be doing membrane flushes regularly (daily) even when the RO is not being used. That’s not happening. Automation helps that.

I forget what it cost but it was around 1K (used). Then add another ~700 for LTL delivery. Plumbing maybe 100-200 dollars in parts. So maybe a couple of thousand invested. It was used and there was a risk there but every thing was working in the end. We had probably spent as much cobbling together a more manual and less capable DIY solution. Such commercial systems still have a costs associated but the expensive membrane elements are much better protected.

The reason I mention this is simply because RO is slow, slow, slow. If you have a system that needs a larger quantity of water, the consumer grade systems can become frustrating. At least it was for me.

Here are some thoughts when figuring out your system:

  1. Do a paper exercise to estimate demand usage. E.g. 30 gallon demand need. Or, 1 gallon demand need, etc.
  2. Using a conservative regeneration metric (specifications sheets will be optimistic), determine how long it’ll take to generate the demand. System pressure and temperature is key.
  3. Consider a buffer tank and distribution pump. And, consider how to keep that sanitary.
  4. Consider if you need to pressurize the water between the source and the membranes to >80 psi. That would require another pump and plumbing that can handle that. Membranes exist for low pressures but their efficiencies are not great … unless you are willing to give up some RO purity, increase the waste product, and/or increase the time element.
  5. From the above, figure the level of pain to include time to generate the demand, maintenance needs, sanitization, flushing needs, amount of automation, costs/time.

There is going to be a huge difference in pain depending if there is a demand need for 1 gallon vs 30 gallon. We had made several attempts in the DIY space and eventually could have built an equivalent system but, turns out, taking a risk and investing in a used commercial system has worked out pretty well so far.

Here’s an image of that particular system in the basement. The blue distribution tank in the back also has a UV-C cycle that runs once per day:

I wouldn’t necessarily suggest something like this for most unless there is a regular high demand load. E.g. when you want 20 gallons now, it’s available now.

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Got them into the starter plug things. They’re actually a generic version bought in bulk by the hydro shop and repackaged for retail - a combo of coco and peat moss. Alien texture of those things but I like them.

I don’t know why I have been messing with the expanded coco pellets that are frustrating and kinda a mess, these things are sweet. Nice springy texture. The seed and little tap root fit just perfect down the little hole, but there is plenty of residual resistance to tug on the shell of the seed. Never again am I using those expando-pellets. This is fantastic. Looks like it’ll plug right into a rockwool cube when the time comes.

Now, I wait…“patiently”

-------------------------------------------AS FOR WATER-----------------------------------------

@BarefootAndBlazed and @Northern_Loki Great. What a writeup @Northern_Loki, much appreciated!

In this house, which we’ll be in for another 2-3 years I’m pretty much limited to the 2x3 tent. It’s not like in 6 months I magically find space for a 10x10 and full-on indoor setup. I’m looking at a couple gallons per day total useage. Filling the res is going to take 10 gallons or so depending on how much I rinse. I can’t imagine using more than 2 gallons per day total with the plants, and I drink about a gallon from the refrigerator plus coffee (1/2 gallon :rofl:) each day.

I had thought I could get away with an undersink solution like the RO500 or a more primative unit. I think it’s more likely I’d install this in our laundry/utility room which is behind the fridge, so we can have nice ice and fridge dispenser water. This gives me some more room to play with but not much. The other half has been “strongly suggesting” that I tear out the old cabinets and install tons of shelves. I’m off this week so this may get folded into that operation. I can feed the fridge with RO, and have a seperate tap to fill the buckets for my garden.

The 100GPD derates to about 60GPD pessimistically assuming my 50-55F “cold” supply temperature drops a bit. I’d rig up an autofill bucket using a float valve to fill a 5 gallon when we go to bed or just during the day doing stuff around the house. I can wait a few hours to fill a bucket especially when I need to do a res change (2 buckets).

I could totally see doing something like you suggest above if I had more room, which I eventually will. Looks nice :grinning: it’s a beautiful setup and I love getting your lessons learned before I do anything!

I have to go to the doctor today so I’m sure I’ll be sitting around reading quite a bit. Thanks for the good directions to investigate.

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Thanks Loki this is the single best RO post I’ve ever seen here, very educational and bookmarked.

Dude! They’re amazing, I can’t believe I messed with Jiffy pellets for my cannabis before finding Root Riots and the like, I haven’t tried any of the other brands yet but they seem like a basic concept, pretty interchangeable. They came recommended to me for cloning, and have been great for that with Techniflora RootTech gel, but I get them in a huge bag and just pop seeds in them too, much better germ rates than anything else I’ve tried for seed starting. I now don’t crack or soak seeds, just scuff hard and rinse for ten seconds in 1:1 H20:H202 and then a fulvic and kelp water soak and stir for a minute or two. I pre wash the plugs with a 1:5 H202 solution the day before to make sure the field is sterile-ish, and the plugs are moistened and expanded fully. I find that they stay moist a few days under the dome and then when I vent it I water them with some fulvic and kelp a tiny bit. They’re so good man, make me feel a lot more confident about starting rarer and older seed packs.

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Those spongy rooting plugs, the root riot brand at least, are almost $1 each (cad). I’m too cheap. But I’m starting to hate peat/coco pellets.

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@Nitt I got you my Canadian brother, look for iHort Q-Plugs, they run about $35 CAD per hundred and come in two sizes:

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Few updates:

Ordered an RO system that will be integrated into my pantry/laundry room renovation. Simpure T1-5 100GPD I picked this for several reasons, cost, reviews, tank, fridge compatibility. The small tank will ensure the fridge works properly, there was some concern with the tankless units that there would be problems doing that with a modest unit. I’ll put a tap for filling my buckets in the pantry and devise some sort of clip-on float valve system for that. Pantry has been stripped, old furnace ducting removed and re-drywalled, old cabinet sawn apart and removed (HUGE PITA), repainted and ready for new shelves and stuff to be installed. Kitchen is now a nightmare of pantry contents today will be picking up all the supplies to get the pantry back to functionality. RO will arrive this weekend/next week and will be installed then. I brought the fridge plumbing out already so it’ll hook right up with minimal fuss.

I think I may have been scammed for the first time ordering the MegaGarden from this groindoor.com place. It was one of the few places it was in-stock, the website is really comprehensive for a scam, but the address seems to be a mail forwarding one.

Edit: Order received 1/4/2024. Only complaint was lack of communication regarding delays

Anyway, there’s a few alternative places I’ll try to call today. I sent them an email asking for an update since they claim it is something that should be shipped in one day. I haven’t heard anything since placing the order 12/19. Who knows. Maybe it’s legit, they just have the holidays off, but I have a funny feeling. I can always file a charge-back. The irony is that I ordered from groindoor thinking it looked more legit than the other places :crazy_face:

Agrigulture Solutions - looks wholesome like a one-man-band sort of online business, can’t find any reference of scams:
https://www.agriculturesolutions.com/megagarden-complete-hydroponic-system?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIsc-h9JiygwMV_s_CBB3ROQWqEAQYBSABEgIUP_D_BwE

Cultivate Supply - up in Denver, these guys look legit and current:
https://cultivatesupply.com/products/megagarden-system?variant=44525489815829&currency=USD&utm_medium=product_sync&utm_source=google&utm_content=sag_organic&utm_campaign=sag_organic&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIsc-h9JiygwMV_s_CBB3ROQWqEAQYASABEgJbTvD_BwE

I’ve got green appearing over the root plugs. We’re cookin’ :sunglasses:

Cheers everybody. Life is beginning here, hopefully :fire: life :grinning:

Hope those Q plugs fit the economical bill for ya @Nitt. I think I picked up mine for about $10 per 25. I’ll be buying more I assume bigger bags are cheaper.

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Encouraging update. I hate to be skeptical, hope it’s totally baseless.

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Probably not a scam just unmotivated employees and Christmas, hope so at least. Either way that’s annoying. At least credit card companies have your back with online orders.

Did you decide on a grow medium yet?

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I hoped as much. I mean, I ain’t working either :grinning:

The hydro garden kit comes with mesh pots and hydroton, I also purchased rockwool cubes. Was going to pick up some more today. I’ll use 3" cubes to keep my seedlings for a while, and I was going to flower clones rooted into 4" cubes. Rockwool seems like a good choice as may be the clay balls. I can go either way at this point but I want to play with it just because I think its neat.

I also am intrigued by the 4" coco expanding cubes.

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Hope they slapped an expedited shipping label on it, you’re going to need it soon!

Just in case if you’ve never used expanded clay, make sure you rinse it off well first…. Maybe it’s just the brand I get but they are always covered in dust from rubbing together in shipping.

What are these 4” coco cubes? Like compressed 4” bricks?

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I like the hydroton for cloning but don’t have experience with them beyond that.

They wick well for roots

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Nice! Thanks man. I know about that geckogrow.ca store, but didn’t know they had that. Look good, I’ll give those a try when I’m done with these pellets (or before, maybe). I’m also considering a real simple bucket aerocloner I saw some link a video of a diy for. It just uses one “emitter” and makes a 360* “plume”(?) of water, instead of a bunch of those tiny red misters - I’ve done that.

Did you buy those same brand ones?

Edit: Rockwool can be tricky; I found it hard to clone in, but other than that, and the cost, I love it. The mini crouton cubes (1/4") are great, and whatever other shapes and sizes of blocks and slabs.
The hydroton does not really “hold” any water. You can’t really grow in only hydroton, it’s usually used around some other medium like a rockwool block, or some type of plug (except maybe in a ebb flow bed, but usually that’s also being used around some type of other medium).

If by 4" expanding coco cubes, you mean those ones that come in a square fabric compressed bag, they look pretty cool. I think it was greengenesgarden who I saw mention them in a video a couple months ago (probably his most recent video or so). I have some floraflex 2Gal compressed (they’re in a bag, but not fabric) coco deals, still in their shipping box.

I just found out last week the local store won’t be getting compressed canna bricks most likely. And the online store I was gonna buy 3 or 4 from, sold out while I was “debating”. I need coco right now to transplant. I’m actually spinning my head wondering what I should do about that now. Oh - wait, this just turned into complaining.

Anyways, carry on.

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Those 4” coco bags are pretty neat, I like the look of those too. I almost went with some of the 2G ones for my outdoor veg garden this summer in a wicking bed tray but I decided to hold off on that kind of experiment for another year. Those Q-Plugs come in larger sizes just like Grodan cubes, where you plug the first 40/40 into a larger one, they make 4x4, 4x6, and 6x6 but I’ve only found them by the case. Still, $136 for a case of 24 6x6 puts them at $5-6 each, maybe a little spendy but pretty cool that it’s another tech available for soilless propagation:

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They look like them, we can get them in the US through Hydrofarm and nursery places

Take a look at the Dare-O-Matic products, something like the #1800 model would be nice to have in the house with that aluminum casting that you could polish up, and they’re cheap!

https://www.dareproducts.com/products/farm-tank/float-valves

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[quote=“FieldEffect, post:81, topic:129811, full:true”].

We have hatchlings :sunglasses:.
[/quote]

Awesome!!!

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I was running around in town all day yesterday so I briefly saw all these posts but couldn’t spend time digging/replying.

I’ve been mulling this tidbit over in my mind wondering if something got lost in translation from native language. @Fuel so the water issue is going to be resolved by RO so getting down to 5.5pH isn’t as unreasonable as it would be. Still in discussions about getting my lines flushed because that’s good for everything but regardless I’ll be starting with RO water. When you say better in very oxygenated setup you mean rockwool likes to be heavily aerated? In addition to the drain cycle? Hope that’s not a stupid question or interpretation.

Still haven’t gotten a shipping notification from Gro Indoor. Hope they pull through but if not I’ll just order another one from somewhere else. I’m not going to complain if I wind up with two of them :rofl:

They showed me these at the grow shop but they were reserved for another customer so I couldn’t buy any that day: https://floraflex.com/default/coco-coir/quickfill-expandable-coco-coir-bags/flora-flex-1-4-quickfill-o2-expandable-coco-coir-medium

If I run the hydroton I’ll definately rinse them well before using. I generally try to keep things clean, so this is a good tip.

Understood. I think if this is the route I went I’d be rooting the clone in one of the spongy rooting plugs and putting that combo into the clay balls. Or a 4x4 rockwool cube.

NICE. I’m not going to polish it up but this is awesome and exactly what I’d need. It didn’t even occur to me to look at livestock stuff - but growing up my parents kept horses (they still do, I just don’t live there anymore :rofl:) and had stuff like this on the water tanks. They actually have these at Tractor Supply, I’ll have to stop by there and take a look.

@Klyphman I still have half the seeds left for 'ya. I was going to wait to offer them until I knew they germinated but happy to send them! They do indeed germinate Thanks for the pollen!

In other news, more green showing in the propagation tray this morning. I think a couple of the NL crosses still aren’t pushing soil, I pulled one out with tweezers and it’s cracked just slow. One of the Shiska crosses doesn’t seem to be cracking but that’s OK - 5 look like they are going to emerge.

I’ll post another picture in a few days hopefully we get some real leaves going. My plan right now is to put these starts into 3" rockwool cubes in a full-size 10x20 tray and start some gentle veg nutes in about a week. I meant to swing by the hydro shop today but I ran out of time to grab these. The 3x3 size should allow me to fit all 18 seedlings in a tray. Here’s the hairbrain plan with ballpark dates just to get it all written out and if it’s of above-average stupidity please let me know:

  1. Seedlings get established (12/25-1/5)
  2. Seedlings into 3" rockwool cubes and develop a few nodes (1/5-1/12) - light veg nutes
  3. Cuttings taken and rooted in the spongy peat/coco things, rooted (1/12-1/19)
  4. Cuttings removed from veg side and put into either 4" rockwool cubes or hydroton and put on flood drain with low flower nutes on 12/12 light
  5. After a week or so up to full strength flower nutes on the flower side, try to keep seed plant “moms” alive on the veg side with low veg nutes
  6. Cull males as soon as I see positive sex on the flower side (cull both the flower clone and the seed parent).
  7. Flower out the females keeping all the moms as small as possible. Ideally one of them is a real winner.

This plan should give me adequate time to receive the MegaGarden from whatever supplier, my RO will be up and running, and I’ll have decided on a medium (but leaning towards 4" rockwool at the moment).

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