First Grow...Show!

[3rd_i]

After some delays, I finally started my first grow this US holiday weekend.

Here’s what’s growing:

• 1 Crickets & Cicada OG Kush x Puck bc1 (popping 3)
• 1 Bodhi Hashplant 1 (popping 3)
• 1 Darkhorse Genetics Original Bruce Banner f2 (popping 3)
• 3 Lucky Dog Seeds Dog Patch (popping 9)
  I had originally planned on 8 plants but after more thought that felt too crowded. Also I’d like to somehow take a Dog Patch female for cloning use, but maybe this is too ambitious due to my inexperience. I don’t have the room unless I can somehow keep it growing outside the tent (like a houseplant would be great, but I know that’s not possible) using a small T5 light or something.

Equipment Set-Up:

• 4 x 4 Vivosun grow tent
• 4’ AC Infinity Cloudline exhaust fan (passive air intake while maintaining negative pressure)
• 2 small AC Inifinity circulation fans
• Iluminar iLogic 8 LED lights (630 watts)
• Small portable AC (outside tent)
• Small portable humidifier (inside tent)
• Medium is Pro Mix HP
• I’d use the bullets feature but they’re very wonky on this interface especially if you try to add additional ones
• Unfortunately no organic grow for this first timer so instead using Botanicare including Silica Blast

Pruning regimen will be topping and LST. No scrogging or SOG approach.

The power of the lights drive the need for the AC and humidifier. I feel like the lights might be overkill for a 4x4 tent but through these measures I think I’ve ironed out a system that works, however embarrassed I am by the primitive set-up. At 100% output and exhaust fan at 6-7 speed the lights, even though LED, still heat the tent up to 90 degrees while reducing RH down to levels where correct VPD especially for vegging can’t happen. I’m located in the CA Central Valley which I’d characterize as relatively low-humidity in terms of the ambient RH. No such problems lights off.

So here are the seeds germinating in a temperate but not cold dark place, (except when this photo was taken!) :

I don’t think a cup for every seed was required but that’s what I did. They’re germinating directly in a 5-1 mixture of distilled water and hydrogen peroxide. Seems like this works just as well as the wet paper towels method as long as they’re not left in the glass too long after the tap root shows. Kind of thinking that handling them to plant might be a little nerve-wracking though…

Next will be planting the seeds in solo cups using Ziplock bags secured with rubber bands (a few holes poked) to promote humidity. And of course several questions related to this stage:

• Definitely no nutes for a while, but how much should I water while in the solo cups? I plan on pre-saturating the soil before planting, but how long should I wait before watering next and the quantity each time I water? Really want to avoid damping off and other issues. I plan on weighing a cup with dry soil to help with this step. Lots of debate out there on this. I feel like watering will get easier after this stage.
• How far away should the lights be from the seedlings? Depends on the lighting of course
• I feel like with these lights even at 30% output at say 40" away, the seedlings will get plenty of light in a gentle enough fashion, but will this approach be a problem?
• When should the ziplock “domes” be removed?
• Will the plants get shocked humidity-wise after the ziplocks are removed?
• Should I keep the seedlings in solo cups until about 6"-8" in height?
• How many full sets of leaves on the plants before transplanting to 1-gallons?

One step at a time, although I feel like the beginning of the effort is the most fast-paced time…

Thanks in advance for all advice given!!!.

[Mrgreenthumb]

Alot going on here … lights should be ok.i wouldn’t worry about the zip lock baggie domes… make sure you water and get your medium soaked i would add about 20 % perlite to your promix and I would also add some dolomite lime, I would also water with a very lite nute mix. Let’s get them sprouted and in your solo cups then worry about the next steps when the time comes

[Mithridate]

Leds, humidifier, ac and all the trinkets

@3rd_i

however embarrassed I am by the primitive set-up

Damn, you should see how I roll.

@3rd_i

90 degrees

Heat shouldn’t be too much of a problem. With good air exchange and ventilation you could get away with it.

@3rd_i

low-humidity

Wait until you have some vegetative mass before making adjustments.

@3rd_i

I don’t think a cup for every seed was required

No

@3rd_i

Kind of thinking that handling them to plant might be a little nerve-wracking though…

Channel the jeweler in you. Or poke a hole deep/wide enough to accommodate the tap root and cover with perlite. Mist.

@3rd_i

solo cups using Ziplock bags

Unacceptable.

I mostly use this method to isolate sketchy cuts(bugs, fungi). The humidity is a bonus.
Although, once seedling emerge they don’t really need it. Maybe if rh is at 10%, but even then…

@3rd_i

Definitely no nutes for a while, but how much should I water while in the solo cups?

I give seedlings a tiny amount of nutes, maybe 300ppm, once, then observe. Autos don’t need anything the first 3 weeks.
As for watering, if you plant in a saturated soil, you’d be OK for a week, maybe 2. A dry-ish pot should be able to absorb 1.5 to 2 times its volume in water(in my case, can vary). The weighing method is a fool proof one, you’ll get a feel for it in no time.

@3rd_i

How far away should the lights

Start higher and progressively lower them. I used anything from t5s to 1000w mh to veg seedlings and they love the light. (T5 2inches from the tops, 1000mh 4ft away for the first week)
I don’t know squat about led, so can’t offer any recommendation.

@3rd_i

When should the ziplock “domes” be removed?

I wouldn’t use them, let them breathe.

@3rd_i

• Should I keep the seedlings in solo cups until about 6"-8" in height?
• How many full sets of leaves on the plants before transplanting to 1-gallons?

6" or 3-4 sets of leaves. You can also check if the roots filled the medium. Not rootbound, but a good root system, and transplant then.

[3rd_i]

Really appreciate you taking the time to provide responses and advice @Mithridate and @Mrgreenthumb.

I have some of the solos set up with domes, some without so we’ll see. If the domeless solos seem to take off more quickly I can remove domes from the cups currently sporting them.

Still waiting for everything to germ and get into cups. Once that occurs I’ll provide a proper update in the next day or so…

[Mrgreenthumb]

With those domes on you are running a risk of dampening off, just a warning.…things look pretty good so far

[3rd_i]

After looking at that condensation and also reading about how difficult correcting for damping off can be once past a certain point I’m taking your advice @Mrgreenthumb and removing the ziplock “domes”.

RH in the tent is in the mid 60s and temps in the low 80s. This results in VPD values slightly below what some consider ideal for seedlings (though ideal VPD for each plant stage seems to be a little subjective in itself). But I think no disaster on the horizon either with such deviation and think that damping off would be much more of one.

[Joker]

Hey @3rd_i just caught up on your thread. A couple things, if you don’t mind me throwing my 2 cents in the hat.

9 plants and a small humidifier is going to be REALLY tight in a 4x4. Just my opinion. I grow 6 in a 5x5. We all grow a little different. That’s the fun part!! Finding what style YOU like best.

I try to stay close on VPD. Some times I’m way off. But ideal VPD isn’t necessary to grow a nice plant. I know many growers that would never run their humidity as high as you need to for VPD. Still grow killer plants.

None of us are perfect and all have made a ton of mistakes. That’s how we learn!!

[3rd_i]

Thanks for dropping by @Joker. I’m actually growing a total of 6 plants in my 4x4 so not as much of a challenge as 9, though I note that I’m still more crowded than 5 in a 5x5 as in how you roll. The humidifier is very portable. Tent just needs a bump in humidity to get to where it needs to be. I’m working on an update email I hope to post soon with reporting on germination rates, what’s advanced to seedling up to this point, impressions on vigor based on which seeds popped fastest, etc. There will be a picture where the humidifier can be seen.

I hear you about VPD not being an exact science. And following it strictly resulting in growers aiming for RH levels in excess of those actually needed to grow good weed., especially in the veg stage it seems to me.

[3rd_i]

Update as of 12PM PST September 7, about 4 days after germinating seeds…

Tent is filled with 18 germinated seeds in solo cups 13 of the seeds were placed in solo cups within 48 of starting germination. The remaining 5 seeds were in solos within 72 hours.

I’m keeping the light output low but have reduced it…more on that later Here’s a report by strain on what’s been happening so far:

Dog Patch
I originally planned on germing 9 seeds but ended up doing 10. Good choice as I had one that still hasn’t germinated and will likely be tossed. So ended up with 9 as planned. All but 3 of the seeds including the one dud had shown taproots within 24-36 hours. All 9 viables were in solos within 48 hours. Out of the 4 strains I’m growing here, notwithstanding the dud Lucky Dog Seed’s Dog Patch was far away the most vigorous in terms of throwing tap roots quickly, much like the vigorous high I hope it provides!

Here are the six above ground:
Dog Patch 1

Dog Patch 4

Dog Patch 5 Note yellowing at end of leaf - sign that lights are too intense?

Dog Patch 7 Same issue as Dog Patch 5 with yellowing at end of leaf

Dog Patch 8 Again, same yellowing at end of leaf

Dog Patch 9

Lights were at 30% output 36" from canopy (630watt LEDs) but after noticing what looks like yellowing the Dog Patch 5, 7, and 8 plants as noted above, I’ve turned them down to 25%. Hopefully if the discoloration is due to light being too intense this helps.

Original Bruce Banner f2
I popped 3 seeds, 2 of which had taproots within 36 hours and were put into solos within 48 hours. The remaining straggler was in solos within 72 hours. So far, 1 of the 3 is above ground:
OBBf2 3

Looking good so far. Hopefully more above ground by tonight!

OG Kush x Puck bc1
I popped 3 seeds. Same as OBBf2, 2 had taproots within 36 hours and were put into solos within 48 hours. The third seed worried me as it sank to the bottom of the cup pretty quickly when popped though I know that’s not necessarily a bad sign. A (very) small taproot was finally noticed at 72 hours from popping the sinker and all 3 were in solos within 72 hours. Nothing has emerged from soil, though I had thought I saw a flash of green under some bits of perlite at the surface on 2 of the cups this morning - we’ll see.

Hashplant 1
Far and away, this Bodhi selection took the longest to show taproots of the 4 strains being grown. No taproots were observed after 48 hours. After 3 days small (1-2 mm) taproots were observed on all 3 seeds and were planted immediately. I know this discussion is all relative as very old seeds can take several days and require additives beyond hydrogen peroxide, scuffing etc. to encourage them to crack. Nothing has emerged from soil so far, though since these were placed into solos 24 hours after the first 13 seeds makes sense they will lag a bit in development.

Tonight I’ll be weighing cups as part of determining if it’s time for their first watering after going into the solos. When I feel the cups it seems like many of the Dog Patches which were among the first planted are drying back pretty effectively. No nutrients for the first 2 weeks, though I know others may do a light first feeding soon after seedlings emerge.

Mainly, I’d like to know what visitors may think of the yellowing at the end of the leaf emerging from Dog Patch 5, 7, and 8 and what usually causes such discoloration at this stage. Like I said, I reduced the light output to 25% from 30% but does it need to be reduced even lower?

Thanks for stopping by all. Next update in a few days.

[3rd_i]

Forgot to add a larger photo of the grow tent showing orientation of the solo cups to the lights, the small humidifier inside the tent and the overall tent pictures in general, especially if it will help with assessing the yellowing issue noted above on a few of the plant leaves…here you go:

[3rd_i]

Second update on my grow. I think (especially at this point through veg cycle) people aren’t interested in these updates until the flowering stage. So, I’m not providing another update until they are officially in veg unless issues pop up. which will probably be at least 2 weeks from now. Now, on to the plants…

It’s been one week since all the plants went into solo cups. At this point out of 18 total seeds popped looks like 15 are advancing. Dog Patch 1 suffered damage as I was trying to separate a stuck seed hull from the meristem and doesn’t look like it’s going to make it. Original Bruce Banner f2 1 and 2 are also out of the race. I think I planted OBB 1 too deep in the medium and stunted it out. OBB 2 may have dampened off as it was one of the cups that I had placed domes on originally before removing them.

I’ve been advancing light output over time. They’re currently at 60% operating 30’ away from the plants. I plan on moving them 24’ away soon.

Here’s what going on by strain…

Dog Patch (DP) (Lucky Dog Seed Co.)

DPs 2-4, 8 & 9 have all started growing their second set of true leaves and look healthy.
DP #2:

DP #3

DP #4

DP #8

DP #9

DP #5 & #6 have not yet started second leaf sets but otherwise look healthy, though no photos of them included here.

And finally, DP #7, the runt of the strain. Unsure of the future of this one. Smaller than all the others. This one was another plant that was originally domed and not sure this affected its health:
DP #7

Original Bruce Banner f2 (Darkhorse Genetics)

No need to numerically designate plants any more with OBB. Below is #3, the only OBB that emerged above ground. Looking pretty healthy though…if it continues, hope it’s a female!

OG Kush x Puck bc1 (OGKP) (Crickets & Cicada)

Looking good here. All are developing their second leaf sets. I don’t consider the leggy attributes of #1 and #2 to be a bad thing:
OGKP #1

Sort of leggy. This one was growing at an angle but I straightened it out using some medium as a lever.

OGKP #2

Very leggy.

OGKP #3

Smallest of the 3 but otherwise healthy.

Hashplant 1 (Bodhi)

Still feeling like these are developing the slowest out of all the plants. Other than growth rate, they look pretty decent. I don’t know the “born on” date of any of the seeds I started but maybe these could be the oldest? So many variables that could explain performance.
HP 1 #1

This is the “runt” of the HP1s

HP 1 #2

Has second leaf set underway and looking the most vigorous out of the HP1s.

HP 1 #3

Also has second leaf set started.

Now, moving forward:

• Do these plants seem like their rate of growth is normal for the stage of development they are at?

• Should I start thinking about the plants’ first feeding? I feel like adding nutrients might still be at least a week off or maybe even hold off until they’re officially into veg cycle with multiple leaf sets. I’ll be using Botanicare products.

[3rd_i]

Well this may be the last message from this OP. I think my grow is finished due to several missteps. All I can do now is learn from the mistakes. What a humbling experience…

It’s been three weeks since planting and this is what the seedlings now look like. Leaf-burned, either under/overwatered and just plain stunted. I’m not going to bother with a picture of every plant but below is representative.

Below are a few more photos of what I would consider to be the 3 “healthiest” seedlings along with a view of the root system of the first plant shown at 3 weeks.

Dog Patch #3

Hashplant 1 #3

OG Kush x Puck bc1 #2

Dog Patch #3 roots

I’ve searched for examples of what seedlings should look like at 3 weeks and none look like these. Maybe these are healthier than the first set of photos but all still have really stunted growth. Multiple sets of leaves present (after the first burned set) but struggling to grow leaves into multiple-fingered examples with true noded branches. Perhaps the last two seedlings above have started such branching, but weakly. Also, the root growth also looks weak compared to healthy seedling examples where the roots are growing out of the drain holes of the solo cups at 3 weeks.

So, how did things get off track? Below is a sort of post-mortem by each growing input with my thoughts. I welcome yours if you have the time.

Light
I was using a 630-watt dimmable LED in a 4x4 tent. I started at 30% output 30 inches away. After 4 days from the seeds going above ground, I noticed some yellowing of the cotyledons so I turned it down to 25%. Then, beginning to worry about slow growth, after 8 days I started increasing the output. I increased output so that by day 14 lights were at 75% output. I also moved the lights closer so they were 24 inches away from the seedlings. I think 75% output at 24 inches burned them. As can be seen above, most of the cotyledons and first sets of leaves were burned, though additional leaf sets continued to develop in a stunted way. However, burned cotyledons and first leaf sets can’t be a good sign for future development. I have tracked down a phone app called Photone that many reviewers say provides accurate PPFD readings compared to spending hundreds for an actual meter.

Environment
In terms of environment, temperatures ranged from 74-75 degrees to 84-85 degrees F and relative humidity ranged from 45%-60% depending on time of day. Ambient conditions exert some influence on these values. I do have the ability to cool and increase RH to a degree but don’t have the ability to “program” temp and RH to exact degrees and maintain them constantly like a Pulse system if tighter ranges are needed. I didn’t use domes in the initial first days fearing damping off.

Growing Medium
I was using Pro-Mix HP, but with no perlite or dolomite lime amendments to it like many do. Never having used a soilless medium, I’m not sure what I might be doing wrong working with it but regardless next time it’s going to be amended with perlite. The Pro-Mix HP seemed very dense and cakey even though it’s supposed to promote drainage more than other Pro-Mix blends. Nowhere close to the “dirt” I’m used to working in the yard.

Watering
I weighed the solo cups filled with the wetted Pro-Mix HP just after planting the seeds (about 325 grams) and then waiting until the cups pretty much dried out and weighed about 160 grams before the next watering. Like a wet-dry cycle approach, which may be totally wrong for seedlings. With this method I watered them for the second time about 6 days after planting the seedlings. They received a third watering this weekend same way. Is this too long to wait? I searched online for videos showiing waterings of seedlings in solo cups and couldn’t find any examples. Each solo cup had several drainage holes but there was never much runoff from any. This is because I was afraid of flooding the cups (overwatering). I used distilled water from a condiment-type squeeze bottle. Never thought it would be so complicated. Simply put, given the growing medium I’m using and the size of container, is there any way to quantify the ideal amount of water seedlings need? Somewhere folks were stating 100mL for seedlings in solo cups. I feel like with perlite added to the Pro-Mix HP I’d have to water more often, but maybe that’s not a bad thing.

To be clear, I never watered the seedlings by misting, fearing leaf burn arising from droplets settling on leaves (almost a magnifying-glass effect). I know this goes against how many folks water at this stage – could never misting them have been a problem? One thing about misting that I’ve never seen addressed is, how long in the seedling’s life until you actually start watering the soil?

Nutrients/ph
I was told no nutes for 2-3 weeks. The seedlings have never received a feeding. I was afraid to stress them with feedings at such an early stage. But at the same time, I read that soilless mediums like Pro-Mix need more nutrients than actual “soil” mediums so that has me thinking maybe they did need nutes. Also, I have Botanicare nutrients. Are these the wrong type of nutes, since Pro-Mix is actually a soilless medium? Should I be giving them hydroponics-type nutes instead? At this point, should I at least try one feeding at 25% strength to see if it helps?

As for pH, I was told Pro-Mix HP would not need any pH amendments. I also didn’t realize Pro-Mix has a hydroponic-like ideal pH range of 5.5-6.2 since it’s soilless. As I said up to this point no nutes, just distilled water. Not a lot going on I’d think to dramatically alter pH, though I know the breakdown of the peat in Pro-Mix will lower pH to some extent. As I stated earlier none of the solo cups would generate much runoff after watering, so measuring pH of the runoff would have been tricky.

So that’s my download…any opinion or tips would be welcome. Just hope I do better next time!

[HolyAngel]

I’ve not used promix nor botanicare before but they definitely need food. You should treat it as hydro or coco so PH 5.5-6.2. I usually start feeding after the first set of real leaves come in which you are already past.

is the 630-watt light, 630 watts from the wall? I run around 15w per sqft in veg and 25ish in flower. You really don’t need much for seedlings, just enough so they don’t stretch a bunch.

[Joker]

So, here is my opinion. Sounds like you are giving up on this grow. Why not experiment? Take a handful of plants and give the 25% nutes. Do another group with 50%. See what happens!! Also, what is the ph of your distilled water? I have checked before and found it high, around 7ph. That’s to high and will also cause problems.

We have all killed seedlings. I killed a LOT starting out. It’s how you learn. Don’t get discouraged!!

[ShiskaberrySavior]

Same here out of 30 seeds if I get 10/12 I’m happy. It’s a crap shoot some times . The strong will survive I’d keep what you’ve got going and nurse them back to health it’s a good learning experience.

I’d up pot to 1/2 gallon just giving them a trickle of water around the stem and wait to see what they’ll do.

[3rd_i]

Thanks to everyone for the encouragement and advice! Not at all going to give up. With the exception of maybe a couple seedlings, all seem like they’re still alive, though not ideally LOL.

@HolyAngel

I’ve not used promix nor botanicare before but they definitely need food. You should treat it as hydro or coco so PH 5.5-6.2. I usually start feeding after the first set of real leaves come in which you are already past.

is the 630-watt light, 630 watts from the wall? I run around 15w per sqft in veg and 25ish in flower. You really don’t need much for seedlings, just enough so they don’t stretch a bunch.

A big mistake was not thinking from the start in terms of hydro/coco so I’m now doing so and will feed/water accordingly. And my light is 630 watts from the wall. If the Photone PPFD meter app works well I should be able to much better dial in light output…

@Joker

Take a handful of plants and give the 25% nutes. Do another group with 50%. See what happens!! Also, what is the ph of your distilled water? I have checked before and found it high, around 7ph. That’s to high and will also cause problems.

That’s exactly what I’m going to do @Joker. I was thinking of this first grow in more “production” linear terms which is ridiculous. Two groups of seedlings are due for watering over the couple days and they’ll be given their first feedings at varying strengths.

@ShiskaberrySavior

Same here out of 30 seeds if I get 10/12 I’m happy. It’s a crap shoot some times . The strong will survive I’d keep what you’ve got going and nurse them back to health it’s a good learning experience.

Exactly @ShiskaberrySavior - let me see if I can at least nurse a handful of the 18 seeds that were popped back to health and into proper vegging.

To wrap my response up, I was watching a grow advice podcast last night and was emboldened when one of the participants just happened to mention “3 week old plants still looking like 1 week olds” in the sense of needing a feeding to jump-start growth. At this point I’d be super-stoked if just a few make it over the finish line to provide decent smoke. Not over just yet…