There are so many folks who roll their eyes and go frothy about using these effective and yet very harsh pesticides. Im not even going to begin talking about Eagle 20.
Honest question for anyone with a open mind to discuss the use of these and how many generations of clones does it take to be free of them in the tissue. REAL WORLD testing that is science based and not tambourine waving and tydyed bandana on fire madness. Too many people dont understand and accept that were it not for CAREFUL use of chemicals we would all be in starvation mode.
I say the third generation is clean and ready to grow and flower. Prove me wrong with science and not the grateful dead.
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i think it depends on where you are growing and how you are disposing.
if youre outdoors and use abamectin (avid) it is extremely toxic to fish, bees and other wild life. i imagine these other powerful insecticides will have similar or worse collaterals.
if youre indoors, disposing correctly, and spraying at the right times (so theres no residue -or negligent residue- at harvest)… go nuts (if youre a home grower. commercially i dunno what are the requirements or limitations).
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I am a science over bro science kinda guy much like yourself.
There was a study done a while ago that found avid was pretty persistant in plants.
If I remember correctly I think eagle 20 changes to something when combusted.
I will see if I can find that info, but there is little in the way of info concerning combustion and cannabis.
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I don’t believe any commercially grown weed will pass using avid or eagle 20.
The other issue is mites build up a tolerance to avid. I got some mites from the west coast that were completely immune to avid. I cut water volume in half and doubled the avid. Didn’t do anything to them!!!
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Whats up farmers?
I have been wondering how long these pesticides stay in the plant and do they really show up when you get something lab tested…
Well 180 ish days ago I sprayed 7 Cuts with the Recommended dose of:
Forbid 4F
Avid
Floramite
Eagle 20
(No I didn’t have mites or PM)
Not at the same time, but over the course of 2 weeks…
They Vegged for another 9-10 weeks, then on in the flower room they went…
Well last week after a few week cure it was time to get the samples tested…
I got them tested by Ca Testing Authority…
All 7 samples tested the same…
Forbid and Eagle 20 free!
I was told by them that an acceptable amount is 1ppm for human consumption.
Any other farmers use these products and actually get it tested?
I was told by CTA, that these pesticides are designed for Ag use ONLY and the photosynthesis of the sun helps to break down these systemic products quicker.
I am doing this exact same test again, but I’m putting some Mom’s outside for 1.5 months to veg to see if the sun does break down the bad stuff…
I used to use Floramite when I got new clones but now no more…
Just thought I’d share my findings!
https://www.thcfarmer.com/threads/180-day-lab-test-of-avid-forbid-floramite-eagle-20.50151/
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I don’t understand. Prove wrong how? They are extremely effective and allow modern societies. They have also destroyed ecosystems. Both are true.
I feel like this post is just trying to pick fights.
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I think he is saying show me the proof, change my mind.
I could be wrong internet chat is pretty cold. 
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I just don’t think anyone has ever argued that they don’t work.
Nor has anyone ever denied their contributions to modern society and agriculture.
I guess that’s the part I’m confused about. What are we supposed to prove him wrong about?
He is suggesting these things are needed and not harmful if used correctly.
Problem is how do we use them safely if there is no data on them being combusted and inhaled.
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Totally agreed. I guess I felt OP came off as condescending considering the way he was throwing light insults.
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Pretty sure any trace of these will fail your product in the license production weed.
Homegrow is entirely up to you.
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Better living through chemistry is always a good topic 
My super simple flaming tye dyed bandanna recipe for mites.
About 2ml of olive oil, a few drops of detergent and 250 ml water is lethal when sprayed on spider mites, aphids and scale. It is surprisingly more effective than some other essential oils like clove and rosemary and even hash oil was tested in the study I read. You have to do it at lights out, but I have never burnt them as with neem and it is effective at control. TBH having grown outside in the tropics where the insect load is off its head, I found two weekly treatment with neem was just about as effective as anything, without me being paranoid about poisoning anyone.
Fungus and septoria treatments however, chemicals all the way, though I would typically double any withholding period and minimize use during flower.
Interesting, I wonder by who and how that safe threshold is defined? In principle even if there is minute traces in clones after using chemicals you have to think it’s going to be so little that when distributed in the flower mass it’s not going to be a health hazard, at least not when you consider the food we eat, milk we drink is farmed using the same chemicals.
It’s fine for them to say the chemicals are for AG but growing weed is……kinda AG? and if it’s good for our food/milk you gotta wonder what’s the difference?
A lot of pesticides/herbicides degrade with exposure to UV light, rather than photosynthesis, so that might be the difference indoors. The other thing is that a lot of pests/weeds have developed pretty good resistance to a lot of the chemicals typically used to treat them, so multi spectrum treatment is normally more effective, but you just need to establish compatibility first as I have learned the hard way by killing everything, including a whole field of crops one time lol.
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Off-label use. An alternate response is ‘show that it’s safe’.
For the above, floramite, what is the half-life for bifen-azate. And then, what is a safe amount for the various consumption modalities? Do we know? Inhalation, ingestion? How do you ensure safety standards are met? What are the effects of acute -v- long term exposure? Do the safety limits vary based on exposure duration?
FWIW:
4.4 PPM Bifenazate LC50 for inhalation over a four hour period. LC50 refers to the lethal dose where 50% of the test subjects expire. The SDS does not account for combustion byproducts.
There are horticultural practices that can achieve similar performance, albeit, with some difficulty, extra attention, and effort. Although, based on the three generation hypothesis, that also seems like a bunch of extra work as the successive generations, as proposed, would require a sufficiently sanitary environment to wean them off those pesticides.
Personally, off-label use is a liability. We’ll avoid until such products are labeled for such use and even then would question whether they are appropriate for the circumstance. Part and parcel of ‘CAREFUL’ use of pesticides.
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Not in any way. I am referring to closed systems usage indoors with proper disposal of leftovers. I would never randomly use these chemicals in a large grow or outdoor grow.
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Thank you for a well stated opinion. I understand these chemicals are not to be trifled with and I used caution when I used them on a plant that was mite infested in rotation over a span of about 10 days. It was a clone sent to me with the understanding there was a strong possibility of mites and there were mites present. After treatment in a quarantined space no further mites were found. The clone was allowed to grow out a couple weeks and clones taken and moved into growing area. They were used for moms so the third gen was used to grow flowers.
I would like to reproduce this as a test sans the actual mites depending on cost.
Can anyone recommend a reputable lab ??
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The labs tend to be regional. MCR is a good lab on the east coast. Pesticide testing is not cheap though, ~$160.
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Take it anyway you like.
There have been far to many instances where they have labeled something as safe to use and then turned around later and it’s found to be horribly destructive , ddt, raid, deet and asbestos are a few that come to mind . If they are telling you it’s dangerous right from the start I would tend to believe it.
These chemicals are horribly toxic esp if you start using them on any regular basis.
most home growers are not trained in safe application methods and some of these chemicals require a applicators license to use, the chance of contaminating your self and the general grow space seems to far out weigh any benefits when there are much safer and effective ways to kill off most pests and problems you will encounter on cannabis.
It’s better to correct the source of the problem than rely on poison to fix it when it occurs.
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Amen my friend 
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Just wanted to share an experience. A grower I know had everything on a schedule. Monday clone Tuesday spray etc. This grower would spray flower 3 days before chopping with avid!!! One of the reasons I don’t like weed I have not grown personally.
No pest hotshot strips work also. They’re really toxic and not tested for.
Full disclosure I have used eagle 20 and avid in the past
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