Woot! You are already one step ahead then!! Sending magical green thumb juju your way! 
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Hey Rand nice to meet you! Yes the trays are on a homemade table and a 20 gallon Rez is below…just a tote with a hole cut into the top. The plan is to keep injecting the cubes till they’re big enough to Clone and then flower them…at that point I’ll just keep the water cycling without the direct injections. Trying my hand at pheno hunting and a first time growing Bohdi’s gear. I realize they don’t have bells and whistles but a friend used them for years and offered to show me how he did things. Congrats on your grow…soil outdoors has always been my method but I love learning new stuff. I’m really interested in the hpa stuff too and there’s a couple guys on here running some but I’m in over my head about like the Greenleaf mega crop buffering thread.
knowledge is power for sure!!! Thanks @Meesh !!!
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Good day to all!! The first pic is one of the space monkeys…I’ve been having some clawing on four of them plus to a lesser degree with one of the ssdd. The new leaves seem to be better. I’m not sure if it’s nutes or maybe…I was trying to keep a perfect 5.8 and often it stayed 5.8 or higher 6.3 couple times. Thanks to the awesome info from @Northern_Loki and @anon32470837 if I’m understanding correctly that a fluctuating ph is actually better than a static 5.8. Or maybe I didn’t keep the res full enough and the nutes reached a higher concentration? The second pic is the group of road kill unicorns plus one that got mixed up from the other strains. (Feel free to help me pick out the one that isn’t RKU!!!..bonus points for correct identification between SSDD and Space Monkey!!)
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The first pic is a group shot of the Space Monkeys. Seems to be two basic phenos. One pheno affected by the nutes kinda lankier and another bushier that isn’t affected.
The second pic is the SSDD group. They seem to be more uniform. The one closest to the camera on the right is the one affected by the nute issue(?).
The plants are 26 days from soak. I’ve upped the nutes with the first res change last night. Plants responded positively and I’m hoping they are outgrowing the sensitivity. Surely not the prettiest but I’m learning a lot! Thanks to all the great sharing of info…I’m very grateful!
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Hi @Jjm, beautiful plants! You seem to have things working quite well!
My thoughts:
Theory is that the availability of different nutrients will change as the PH changes. Which is true.
Idea is to purposefully allow the PH to drift within the accepted “good” range allowing for nutrients that are “less” available at the lower PH to become “more” available when the PH drifts higher. And, likewise, the converse.
How much of a difference it actually makes as long as the PH remains within the generally accepted range is where there is some debate.
I’d think the effect would likely differ from grow to grow as there may be other exacerbating circumstances. Things like how often is the solution refreshed, etc.
The PH will naturally change as the plant uptakes nutrients, disposes of “waste”, and attempts to store sugars/nutrients in the root zone. Allow the plant to do it’s thing and then periodically adjust the PH in the opposite direction of the drift while staying within the safe range.
A note on buffers:
Addition of buffers into the solution potentially slows the drift by a weak chemical exchange of
cations:
primarily concerned with Calcium (Ca++), magnesium (Mg++), potassium (K+), ammonium (NH4+), hydrogen (H+) and sodium (Na+)
and anions:
chlorine (Cl-), nitrate (NO3-), sulfate (S04=) and phosphate (PO43-)
This exchange and the relative ratios of free cations and anions depends on the target PH of the solution. Buffering provides additional time before having to make a PH correction for an otherwise well balance nutrient solution.
But, relying on buffers to keep PH stable might actually hide some of the effects that may be better to be seen. At least initially during the period of understanding how a new system/plant acts over a grow or two.
The reason I bring this up is because the understanding of buffering to some extent means you’ll also have an idea of what causes PH to change, how minerals can be sequestered, and how minerals become more or less available as the PH changes.
General/normal PH drift and nutrient concentration:
Over time, as the plant is feeding, the concentration of certain nutrients relative to other nutrients may increase in the reservoir. As one adds water, nutrients, and/or PH adjust the solution to keep within a safe zone, some nutrients may be slowly depleted while other nutrients slowly become more concentrated. This nutrient balance starts to go out of wack. This can lead to deficient or toxic levels of a mineral in solution even if you’ve strictly controlled the PH. This is one reason for changing out the solution periodically and for being thoughtful during the addition of any additional nutrients.
Fancy and larger scale operations will perform regular analysis on the nutrient solution and then make spoon feeding adjustment of single nutrients based on what the plant has absorbed and released into the solution. That is is usually beyond the reach of what we are talking about here.
Other reasons for PH drift might include infection, concentration, or reaction/precipitation within the solution. A sudden and rapid change in the PH over the typical trend might indicate that somethings going awry.
@MicroDoser and @anon32470837 will likely have some great thoughts on how to approach and interpret PH drift.
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Thanks for the kind words. Had to wait a few days to get them looking better so I could post pics. 
. I actually enjoy that the PH changes as it seems part of the fun. I was thinking, if possible, about uprecycling a water softener insides into a filter of some sorts to help regulate ph in the future but for sure trying to keep things simple while learning. You would make a good teacher…I like how you approached disseminating the mega crop buffering info! I didn’t understand all of it but will revisit it. Thanks for taking the time and effort to post. I’m really enjoying the HPA thread and my respect for all the time everybody spent there too. Lastly…I saw bohdi joined up on OG…nice fit IMHO for how things get shared here at OG.
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It’s fun … at least for awhile. Don’t ask @anon32470837 how much fun he’s been having 
Seriously, I hear you. There are so many cool things to experience and discover. Who knew, right?
Let us know more about what you’re planning when you get back around to that future project.
haha. lol. Oh, man. Thank you, appreciated. Passing along what we’ve learned hoping we keep that chain unbroken. Still learning new things daily from the many talented folk here (or, at least trying). You’re up next, you know!
But, don’t get too buried in that thread trying to decode some of that. The data is there but it needs to be cleaned up a bit and to better explain some of background information. The way I’ve described some things is a bit too confusing and I’m trying to figure out a better way. Maybe you have some ideas on how/where it could be improved?
Yes, those guys are really trying some mind bending things. Fascinating to see the progress and results.
Yes, very cool, eh? I hope he finds the community here friendly, interesting, and sticks around over the long haul!
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Hi there @Jjm ! You have some good looking plants!
I have a couple of questions for you on your setup. You’re doing Ebb/Flow with rockwool cubes - how often do you flood and for how long? Are you monitoring EC or TDS? What levels are you feeding? Are you aerating and/or circulating in the rez in any way? What nutes? Rez water temp? Room temps?
Sorry - Im a detail nerd when it comes to growing 
On PH, buffers etc - I agree with @Northern_Loki that the best situation is to find out why your PH is doing odd things and fix that first. It took me weeks of tests, adjustments and experiments to finally conclude that I have an algae problem, and even longer to get a fix dialed in. Turns out the ‘fix’ is almost as bad as the problem as far as fuzzy roots, but the plant is much happier with good PH levels.
The MES buffer was a good thing in that it is allowing me to complete the grow. I think the plants might have died if I hadnt been able to buy some time by using the buffer.
From what I have read, you seem to only be having occasional PH issues with some sudden jumps up to over 6? It looks like you were concerned about one of your plants, but I think that is probably just a side effect of growing several different strains from the same rez. Different strains like different EC levels as far as nutes and can mature at different rates. The other possibility is a localized issue with that specific plant - root disease, pests etc. If the roots look ok, I wouldnt worry to much.
Im asking about the rez size, circulation rates, flood times, etc for several reasons, but most of it comes down to how often do you change the rez completely? Or do you just top it off?
PH can shift as @Northern_Loki said, just from the natural growth of the plant and root interaction with the nute water. Of course, there are also outside issues such as root disease or algae. It can take some careful looking to try to pin it down when there are so many different possible causes.
Have you seen this chart? Assuming there are no other issues like disease, algae, etc, this is where I would start. You want to adjust your nute strength (EC/TDS) based on how the PH, and EC and water level in the rez change over time.
If you track all three over time, it may give you some good indicators for how to make adjustments.
Im looking forward to seeing how this goes!!
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Thanks @Northern_Loki I will read through the mega crop ph buffering thread again. I ran like heck from the “hard” sciences in school and regret my laziness now. I will try and note any tough spots for me understanding wise but sure it’s more a lack of a skill set in biology/chemistry. So much easier to learn if you want to learn. I have a small hay operation and spent some time messing with row crops too so ph and nutrients aren’t a completely foreign topic.
I did have a snicker at the hpa ph issues but really am most impressed with the pioneering spirit. I’m sure I’d have given up.
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Thanks Larry I’ve been enjoying the hpa grow!! Room temps from 70-78. Humidity as high as 71% but generally 45-60%. The res is 20-22 Celsius. Yes the lights and res pump runs 24/7 atm. I think the res is just over 20 gallons. I’m running 610 ppm/500 scale? I found a conversion table and thought that was 1.3 ec maybe?? The water is 230ppm from a well with a water softener. For nutes I’m using house n garden aqua flakes a+b 75 ml each roots excellerator20 ml and super thrive 15ml. I have 50# mega crop one that I want to run side by side and compare flowering results in the near future. I have a “partner/buddy” who ran this set up for six years and kinda using his suggestions for the time being. Injecting into the blocks pumped from the res into twelve blocks at a time and then switching blocks daily. Keeping an inch or inch and a half in the tray. Roots growth seem to be good…no rot present. No aeration in the res at the moment i have a pump with four air stones when I stop feeding into the blocks and go to a straight ebb n flow. I was told the bubblers injecting was enough o2 for now.
I’ve stopped being so anal about the ph and letting it do it’s thing. I’ve set ph adjustments down to 5.5 and gradually rise up to 6.1. Before I was chasing 5.8 constantly. I’ve got a bit of algae growing on the blocks and in the tray. Buddy assured me this is no big deal. I will try to clean it up a bit at res changes. Weekly or every ten days. I think I got most answered? I admire your tenacity and willingness to go where no man has before😀. I’m going to give it a try one day. Working on saving for a grow pole barn atm. Thanks again!!
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Thanks also for the charts guys!! I’m in the green arrows on the ph one. Just my overthinking…little more of @ReikoX litfa.
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Just wondering, what is the media in the softener? Is it sodium chloride? Potassium chloride?
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Hey @Northern_Loki the water softener is a sears cheapy it’s second one hear in twenty years so stuck with it again. This is the parts description for KenMoore resin.
Description
1 cubic foot High Capacity Resin For treatment of hard water
Standard softener resin used in most water softening systems. Amount of resin needed can be determined by tank size and/or capacity of the system 9"x48" Tank - 1 cubic foot - 32,000 grain 10"x54" Tank - 1.5 cubic feet - 48,000 grain 12"x48" Tank - 2 cubic feet - 64,000 grain 13"x54" Tank - 3 cubic feet - 96,000 grain This is a high-capacity, bead-form, conventional gel polystyrene sulfonate cation exchange resin ready for use in household or industrial water conditioning equipment. It removes hardness ions, e.g. calcium and magnesium, replacing them with sodium ions. When the resin bed is exhausted so that the hardness ions begin to break through in the effluent, capacity is restored by regeneration with common salt. NOTE: The capacity obtained depends largely on the amount of salt used in the regeneration.
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Ahh, ok. Ion exchange resin.
Things are looking fine with how things are growing.
For future reference, if there are any problems, to keep in mind there “may” be some potential for sodium toxicity.
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Yeah, that would concern me too, but the plants look fine so far. Normally you want to avoid added sodium salts - they kill plants. You may have heard of ‘salting the ground’. It was a technique used in ancient times by armies to wreck the crops of enemies and kill off the population by triggering starvation. Salted ground wont grow normal crops.
Based on my experiences, I would be worried about the algae. Actually, I would be after it with a flame thrower if it was me 
You seem to have the green stuff, where I have mustard or brown algae. Maybe they have different reactions on PH. Again, the plants look fine and your PH seems reasonable for the most part, so I thinks it is safely ignored for now.
Thats an interesting system you have setup. Not really E/F at all - more a drip system? Ebb/Flow gives the roots a lot of time completely without water in between floods - other than a very thin coating thats left on the medium during the Ebb cycle. Using drip in rock wool cubes like you are doing - especially leaving an inch or more of water in the tray, will not give them any ‘air time’. It takes rock wool cubes a long time to dry out.
Ive seen similar systems using RW cubes and an E/F tray, but instead of drips into each cube, they tilt the tray and run a constant flow down the tray that feeds all the cubes from the bottom. It can work very well, so your system should work just fine - even if it isnt anything like E/F
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Thanks Larry for the input. Should I run an unsoftened water line? I know the green algae had me wound up too but my bud assured me it was part n parcel. So I guess not really an ebb n flow. The plan is to switch to just a pitched tray without the injection into the blocks as flowering starts. With reading I’m a bit concerned that the lights on the roots might be a problem but I’m told it’s not been a problem in the past. The roots are just starting to creep out from below the blocks. I’m going to move them into both trays at next res change. Thanks for the advice from you guys I’m grateful!!
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when the plants fill out, the roots wont get much, if any direct light. ive seen plenty of folks run flood tables with no media with respectable results, myself included.
looking good so far
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Thats a question thats difficult to answer unless you know whats in the well water to begin with. You said your water was from a well with 230PPM? Is that 230 after the softener or the PPM straight from the well before it goes through the softener?
My well water is relatively good PPM wise. Its usually well under 100, BUT - it has algae in it straight from the tap. Thats why I switched to RO water. Your well water may be great for plants or not so much. See if you can get a water quality test report?
As mentioned before - the plants look fine now, so I doubt its anything urgent unless you start seeing bad signs.
Yeah, algae will grow when there is light plus moisture. Green algae probably isnt too bad as long as its not ON the roots. if tis growing on the roots, that means its directly competing for the same nutes the roots are after - and th algae is getting first shot at the nutes. Plus, the algae will be changing the nutes the same way the roots are - eating some nutes and leaving others, plus the algae will have its own effluents and exudates which will be going back into your nute water.
So, green algae may not be directly bad for the plant the way root rot or brown algae is, its sure not helping any.
The other grows I mentioned that use these cubes on a flood tray always cover the tray with panda film to keep light out and prevent algae growth.
Some people dont have issues with light getting to the roots. However, from what I have read, the vast majority say light is bad for roots. I tend toward the roots like it dark better than they like it light side of things. If they liked the light, they would grow up instead of down 
For sure, it there is algae growing directly ON the roots I think that has to be bad.
“Bad” is relative. Light may not kill the roots or plants, but it may be reducing your yields. You wont know that unless you try it both ways though.
I dont see that that will make a big difference to the cubes or the roots. Those rock wool cubes will be just as wet either way. Rock wool acts like a super sponge, so ANY water at the base or from dripper will keep them soaked to the max. Thats just the way they work. The roots outside the cubes might like it better depending on the flow rate.
If you have just enough flow to barely cover the roots, that will be like an NFT setup. A Nutrient Film Technique relys on the “film” part for its success.
Im talking one layer of paper thin - not 1/2" thin. If you have more than a thin thin thin film of nutes, then you are really doing DWC type watering.
You may have noticed in my thread that I am kind of hung up on roots and how to feed them. Obsessed wouldnt be too far out of line to describe me and roots
All of the science I have read about hydroponics says that the higher the air to water ratio, the better the roots and plants will do. The NASA researchers decided that HPA was ideal as far as giving the roots the best ratio of water to air to maximize growth and yields. It also happens to use the least amount of nutes and water. That is very little water and lots of air. In my mind, Membrane Meniscus technique is the only one that comes close to that same ratio of air to water, but its very dificult to do as far as the mechanics of the membrane. Next would be properly done NFT, followed closely by Ebb/Flow, then come things like Hempy buckets, DWC, etc. Rock wool cubes stay wet all the time with very little air inside, so thay are down the list a ways.
One way to improve on the tilted tray table would be to put down a layer of fabric batting first. Then set the cubes on that batting. Then when you run water down the tray, it will spread out in the batting increasing the surface area exposed to the air by several orders of magnitude. Thats assuming a low flow rate that just barely keeps the fabric wet.. Remember, thin layers of water aerate better than thick layers. Flooding that fabric will eliminate all the benefits of having it in the first place.
The roots from the cubes will then grow out into that batting and get all the water and air they need from the thinnest possible layer, but mostly the extra air is what makes it better.
True Ebb/Flow works on the same principles. You flood the tray that is filled with clay balls or rocks, etc. That flood refreshes the nutes in the water coating the clay balls. Then you drain ALL that water out of the tray and let those clay balls just sit there in the air. They will still have a thin coating of water. That thin coating will absorb O2 faster than a thick layer because it has a hugely greater surface area relative to its volume. The roots clinging to the clay balls - and that thin layer of water - then get 100% O2 and all the nutes they need at the same time. Flooding them in water may give them the nutes, but it reduces the amount of O2 to a less than perfect ratio.
Now, obviously growing in thick layers or containers of deep water works and works well in most cases - DWC, RDWC, LPA, coco, rock wool cubes, hempy buckets, and all the other variations - including the way you are doing it now - can all work just fine. Its a matter of degree and how anal you want to be about it
No matter what technique you use, the other details play a huge part = PH, disease, lighting, humidity, pests, etc etc.
Ok, Ive rambled on enough I think. Bottom line is, what you are doing is working fine, so no worries other than me being pedantic and nerdy about roots and aeration
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Cool deal on the softener not being an issue atm. I had it tested when I put the well in in 98 and the water softener was recommended. I’ll monitor possible sodium overdosing.
The flock got moved a bit wider on the tray…got thinking as the roots are coming out the edges of the rw cubes maybe I should keep moving to a minimum. The ability to move individual plants around is a plus for some soil setups IMHO.
“Obsessed wouldnt be too far out of line to describe me and roots 
”
For sure!!! I don’t much like it either but have agree that it doesn’t seem to be a big issue. I really like your roots too and was remembering a conversation with a homeopathic healer about the medicinal qualities in the roots. I could see eating a bowl of your roots!! Not to be a it puts the lotion on kinda guy:grin:. @MicroDoser I think is getting a HPA setup around too and looking foreward to watch more of your guys progress. I’ll get the air stones in the res too as it sounds like more o2 is good. I think the pitch of the table is predetermined but I like the NFT you mention as well. I’ve agreed to try my buddy’s setup for now…absolutely will be looking into different styles of growing for future grows. I’m intrigued with lec/cmh led lighting. I’m using close to the same thing for lighting I was using in 1988. peace and thanks for the input and knowledge dissemination. Josh
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Hey y’all!
33 days from soak…ph has, lately, been fairly easy gradually rising currently at 5.8. I’m glad I finally saw the light and used some of the LITFA on the Ph and the plants seem to like it too! Ppm is at 610 not sure what scale so I’ll leave it at that. Temps been in the 70s and humidity from 45-50. Raised lights yesterday as noticed a lil burn.
The SSDD runt
I just can’t cull it. I did cull a space monkey several weeks ago as somehow it’s top died (probably grower related
). Planning on taking clones of all 21 in a couple days and res change is due then also.Seven SSDD
The Eight+ one mystery RKUs
Six Space Monkeys
SSpace Monkeys
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