Landrace Expansion & Trade

Trading Post
402

Lol!!! I just saw that! With this stupid social distancing i could use a european hump strain right about now! ( i just woke up… forgive me😂dang spell check )

Thats great info. Thanks. I thought elevation was key, and believe it is in most cases, but the longest flowering parvati strain i picked up is also the highest in elevation. Must be some stubborn sativa lovers in that village. ( like me) I’m sure its unusual to go later as you go up in elevation at the same latitude. Question for everybody here… malana is listed as 12-15 weeks. Rasol 11-15. And most others in this area have similar flowering times. They come from near the 30th parallel. I have read in the past that strains from this latitude will “autoflower” when grown further north? I dont mean after 25 days growth they flower, like a true autoflower, but that they begin flowering early enough that they can finish even where i am? Any truth to this statement? I’m trying to calculate the onset of flowering. Seems to me that with a mid november finish at 45 n (parvati) I would finish in early November at 42.5… I’ve been looking for the source of the info about that( autoflowering)…and can’t find it. You are all more accurate with this type of info anyway. I read this specifically about Durban, which I am running this season. 10-14 weeks and @lefthandseeds says close to the medium of 12 weeks… They won’t like the weather here after oct 7th. My idea is to finish them by this date. When do I start forcing them ? July 7th? And when can i stop covering them? Can they handle frost? Thanks @lefthandseeds for the durban photos and info a ways back. I’ve wanted to grow this landrace longer than any other, but with all the choices at hand i temporarily forgot that. Your pics and description sealed the deal for me!

Me too! Next year perhaps. Like you said…need heat and greenhouse for those. Too bad yr headed the wrong direction lately weather wise. There was a guy on icmag that “finished” manipur up in seattle! It was a bit scraggly but it did ripen. And he raved about it. Great, ridiculous resin coverage. Purple too. You have manipuri? If you want to try to make seeds i have an extra pack from rsc…i think seeds would finish where you are…:wink:

Yes indeed. I’ve done it. Light from 1000 watt bulbs travels maybe 3 or 4 feet into the canopy with proper lumens. I only had one at the time and it wasn’t enough for more than one or two plants. I’ll have to get prepared before i attempt an indoor finish with tropicals. I agree its best to finish outdoors.

2 Likes
403

Durban is up top on my list too. will be running @lefthandseeds Inside Soon also. This will be my first outside grow, At 42N, I’m thinking KISS. Have two Alaskan strains (MTF and Alaskan kush) that are for sure, maybe a GG4 because I know all her tricks.

3 Likes
404

Do you think it’s possible to make a sativa, through successive grows, adapt to a particular climate without breeding anything into it?

I grew a Colombian Gold x Malawi Gold last year that almost finished outside. I left it in a 3 gallon pot and had planned on moving it into a 7 gallon, but in retrospect I’m glad I didn’t. I did bring it inside on the cold nights to let it finish so I’m glad I didn’t put in a bigger pot.

That small pot actually kept the plant a perfect size at about 4 1/2 feet (1 1/2 m).

I was just fantasizing about growing a clone every year to try and make it adapt to my location. I’m at 37ºN and elevation of 6400ft (1950m).

If it can be done, how many generations would it take you think? I would love to finish them outdoors here.

4 Likes
405

I heard that the “Golds” became gold because they stripped a strand of skin off the stalk to start the plant dying. Is this the same as flushing at end to bring out colors during cure?

I am with you on pots Gman, gonna start running in gallons. Tested on my Thai and it will come in at around 4 feet. Too old and tall to be shuffling around 6-8’ indoor plants. I’m 6’2” and I can’t count how many nice tops I snapped of even with 10’high lights.

4 Likes
406

I’ve fried some colas by bumping into the light. They don’t like that I found out. I’m terrible about moving shit around constantly.

3 Likes
407

Start looking for highland varieties of sativa that interest you… most will be able to take your altitude with ease. There are some varieties that grow at a considerably higher elevation than where you’re at.

I think if you tried a highland sativa it would make you happy and you would enjoy growing it!

2 Likes
408

I’ve got just the thing. Lesotho is the one for Colorado i think. Grown at altitude in the same climate zone. I got some @gman, like 100 in trade for this project exactly :joy:

5 Likes
409

Very cool. I also have a friend with a really tall geodesic GH higher in the mountains and he’s grown one that hit the top, ~16’ high. I’ thinking of doing a GH on my place this year, too. A small one just for this.

Thanks @DesertGrown. I know they grow well here, but having a strategy for that last month is a good idea. I’ll come up with the right solution. Plants grow really great at my place outside but each year can vary as far as weather.

I need to make a tall hoop house of sorts right now and see if I can buy enough shade cloth to grow inside it all summer for the sativa. Come fall, switch to a poly cover and keep on trucking. Hail storms are a given most years and that’s another main reason I want to start using the shade cloth.

That way, I should be able to start them early under the poly before switching back to the SC. my wheels are spinning. Plus, I’m baked!

6 Likes
410

Lots of questions and comments to reply to. I will take on the issue of landrace here.

In general, ‘landrace’ is a term coined and used for animal breeds. It is also a term borrowed for regional Cannabis strains grown in any one area for decades or centuries. It is arbitrary as to how long a strain has to be grown to be a landrace. Some say landraces in plants do not exist at all. But in the case of Cannabis, I think it is valid to use for any strain that has been grown regionally for a long enough time to become stable and consistent. Though even that is not a good definition, as strain from Lebanon have been grown there for at least a century now, but they remain variable in that they throw two phenos (a sativa-line and an indica-like). They also have inconsistent amounts of THC and CBD per plant. But I would consider them a landrace. Same with Mexican strains from small regions in SW Mexico grown there for at least a century and likely upward of four centuries. We know Cannabis was planted in Mexico as early as 1525 from records in Mexico and Spain. That was called Manila hemp, from the then Spanish colony of The Philippines.

In my early days of smoking weed, all we had were imported bags of bricked or loose pot and pressed hashish. There was nothing else, save for a small amount of ‘home grown’ that was usually trash. Until the late 1970s that is, when we learned how to grow simsemilla. Then in the following decades, the ‘home grown’ from California outright replaced all the imported stuff. Before that it was all pretty much weed from SW Mexico, Colombia/Panama, and Cambodia and Thailand. Also hash from Morocco, Lebanon, and Afghanistan. Occasionally we also got weed from India, Jamaica, Africa, and Central America. But the majority was from Mexico, Colombia, and Thailand. They were distinct and obvious. They were all, for a lack of a better term, landraces. They were from a region that had distinct strains, highs and qualities. They were similar year in and year out with names like Oaxacan, Cambo Red, Panama Red, Thai sticks, Jamaican Lamb. It was always named for the region it came from, and maybe a color.

Now these days landraces, heirlooms and modern hybrids are all a jumble and many (if not most) strains have some indica or modern Dutch or California hybrids bred into them. In Morocco, for example, all the landraces there are now being or have been displaced by Pakistani genetics. Similarly in Mexico, the SW native strains have been replaced by modern Dutch hybrids and the growing has moved to northern Mexico under the control of the cartels. Also many of the SW Mexico strains were hybridized or even replaced locally in the late 1970s and early 1980s by hippies from California with NorCal hybrids. I am also told that in Colombia the local Punto/a Rojo/a and Santa Marta Golds have been long since replaced with Dutch hybrids.

So what is a landrace, and do they survive? It is arbitrary. Some landrace strains have survived in their original form by some of us collectors. Some have survived in their native habitat in places like Lebanon. But the elephant in the room that influences Cannabis the most is exposing it to different environmental conditions. Cannabis adapts rapidly to new conditions. Be it indoors, different climate, altitude or latitude. Many call this genetic drift or mutation. But it happens too fast for true mutations, which can take hundreds of years to occur. It has been observed over the course of the last 400 years or so that Cannabis adapts and often times degrades in a new growing location within only four generations. This has also been recently determined to be the result of gene switching. Humans also display gene switching in as little as one generation. At any rate, if Cannabis can adapt through gene switching in as little as four generations, it seems that Cannabis can and does create and lose ‘landrace’ qualities in a rather short period of time. Like within a decade. Which would explain why regions like Colombia in the 1960s (which only ramped up growing during WWII) had such distinct and regional varieties after only a short period of time. And why growing potent Dutch hybrids can and do degrade within a few generations when grown in different climates and grown and self crossed, as IBL.

13 Likes
411

Well, you and some other posts open several different cans of worms here. One being the use of the terms indica and sativa. Many botanists do not agree with the definitions of ruderalis, sativa and indica as species. In my book they are terrible, but they persist. Genetically, indicas and sativas are basically the same. Yes… genetic studies have shown that the Cannabis strains are best defined and divided between the psychotropic "drug’ cultivars plus the Indian hemp cultivars as a group vs. the northern European hemp plus the ruderalis cultivars. If you have to divide them up, that would be the place to do it. But modern hybrids are mostly mutts of what are called or defined as indica and sativas. The autos include ruderalis genetics.

Which I will address as a side note here. Many claim that some sativas like Lebanese are semi-autos or auto hybrids because they bloom early. They are not and that is not the case. They are pure photos. Auto genetics are from ruderalis genetics and are unique, and with the exception of plants bred from or with ruderalis, do not occur in sativas or indicas. Many mutts out there do have auto ruderalis genes though. Sadly. I am not a fan of either autos or fems, but people breed what people breed. Autos are recessive and can be bred out. Fems however lead to herming and carry herm genetics. Not because of careful breeding, where natural occurring herms are not used for breeding. But from a-holes wanting to make a fast buck or from ignorance where natural herms are used in breeding fem seeds.

Anyway, back to the cams of worms. You will not make a sativa from successive breeding, per se. That being because indicas and sativas are the same genetically, and really the same species. There are different traits you can breed for if you are breeding for specific traits. Say for example you want narrow leaves, or early blooming, or purple stems. You can selectively breed for those traits. HOWEVER, and it is the elephant in the room again, Cannabis will adapt to growing conditions through genetic switching, and that you do not have any control over, save for creating a growing condition that will result in a specific change. What Cannabis does given specific growing conditions is not well known at this time though. Even 400 years ago hemp growers in Virginia noted that European seed stock declined after a few generations if they are left to themselves to breed and seed. So careful selection of breeding stock for seed was paramount to maintaining a good crop of hemp. The same is true today. Given the amount of seed produced indoors under lights, it is hard to know what will happen when they are grown outdoors, in greenhouses, or under different conditions indoors.

For the above reasons I do one large run of seeds from F0 seeds to create the most similar strains of plants that I can from bag weed seed. Then I freeze them for eternity. If I want to grow more of that strain, I use the F1 (or IBL-1) seeds and I do not breed them any further unless I want to make hybrids. Which is another BIG can of worms here. Hybrids and hybrid genetics.

14 Likes
412

So what are hybrids? Well, at this point in time all Cannabis strains are hybrids of some type. Be they natural or human crossed. Landraces, heirlooms, and cultivars. All hybrids of some sort. Now if you grow a line of Cannabis in one location for a certain amount of time (debatable here it seems) you will get what we could call a landrace. Say, Afghani, Lebanese, Oaxacan, or Thai. Plants with the same traits grown in large numbers. Now the can of worms here is cross breeding hybrids. Take Afghani and cross it with a Oaxacan. What you get is a huge array of possible outcomes. And plants that express all kinds of traits. Now I have had may arguments with growers over the years about the trait variables and when they are displayed. I see it most in F1 hybrids, but some claim that they are more variable in F2 hybrids. Whatever the generation, when you make hybrids you are in effect releasing a huge array of potential phenotypes, chemotypes and genotypes. Mix and match. In what I have seen doing limited hybrid breeding, the wider the gap between strains, the wider and more varied the results may be. Take Thai and Oaxacan, for example. There is more variation between crossing them than say between Thai and Vietnamese, or Oaxacan and Guerrero. The more similar the strains, the less variable are the hybrids, and the more dissimilar the strains, the more variable the hybrids. Now I have rarely done more than F2 hybrids other than IBL, and I breed mainly to preserve genetics in landraces and heirlooms, and not to create new cultivars with exotic tendencies. Those are for the most parts duds in my experience, and hence why so many seeds are given away for ‘free’ by breeders.

I am sure that others have different opinions here about this stuff. I am but one person with one set of experiences and education in my lifetime. Every year that I grow weed I learn new things. I rarely grow the same varieties for multiple years, save for verifying that my seeds grow true and to confirm consistency. I have worked a lot with South African, Mexican, Hawaiian and Middle Eastern strains. I have worked less with Colombian and SE Asian strains as they just bloom too late and long here and in California, where I grew a lot of weed before Y2K. I have also grown a lot more sativas than indicas, for lack of better names to distinguish them. Few seed companies even offer sativas any more. Sadly. Never mind landraces. Or even regular seeds. WTF is that about? Does everyone just want to grow only females and to have to rely on seed companies for seeds or on clones? And try cloning autos. Some say it can be done. I do not grow autos so I cannot say. I have no use for them for fems.

10 Likes
413

Just found a bleeder in ghash when I topped it

9 Likes
414

Hash plant thing , have a Beldia going to flower next week that’s still got a scab.:sunglasses:

3 Likes
415

Worth noting it was closer to purple/black to me than again I’m color blind so could’ve just been dark red

3 Likes
416

Yep same here, I’m betting upstate will find a few in his Moroccan run…

image
image1512×2016 197 KB

8 Likes
417

@PanchoVilla Thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge! I really enjoy reading your posts! :v:

11 Likes
418

Me too. We live in different times, now. I can relate because of what we smoked in the 70’s. It was exactly like you wrote it. It was the last time I ever heard genetic names tied to strains. We had all of the exact landraces you mentioned. After I moved from the southeast, other than Thai stick names disappeared. Everyone was happy to get weed. I’s say the last thing I remember that was named was red hair. The start of US sinsemilla. After that growing was kept so quiet and I moved so much that I never got into knowing any growers. We all just had good tastes for good pot. I probably smoked a lot of the early classics in the PNW and Montana and never knew it by todays names.

9 Likes
419

Sounds like a great cross! Yr Congo is from an African friend, yes? Different Congo than the g13 congo cross I’m guessing?

1 Like
420

Howdy G-Man. You say you’ve lived in the Pacific Northwest? Have you ever heard of a strain called u-dub? Short for University of Washington I believe. my cousin knows a guy that’s been working with u dub for years and years and years. Supposed to be an excellent breeder. That is the man is an excellent breeder, although I’m sure u dub is as well. Any idea what this variety is? Some people say G13? Any info you were others may have on this variety would be much appreciated, cuz I could probably get ahold of it

5 Likes
421

Dug a few holes for the outdoor crop yesterday. I’m at 42N have a 10” stocky MTF with a 1/2” main trunk ready as an early finisher. Also have a few extra clones of the Purple Thai that looks like it should make it, leaning 50/50 little more to Sativa as it matures. Test plant looks like around 70 indoors under 2000w HPS. Any other suggestions that will finish. Late September/October?

4 Likes