Thanks for sharing. Wasn’t quite sure if you could go male to female. As I don’t grow males. Unless I’m forcing females to produce male flowers to create feminized seed. So definitely not experienced with that. And it is good to know if I ever come across something like it or need to educate someone else who might be in the same boat as I was. Thanks a ton, buddy!
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Thanks for elaborating. The first thing that came to mind are the varieties which seem to throw more females than males in their progeny. For example, Kali Mist, Original Haze and to some extent generally speaking Thai weed.
Is there a common denominator there? If I’m following your math, when the frequency of females in the subsequent population increases, the fitness of the overall line decreases due to inbreeding. I think that’s what’s being illustrated by the math.
That said, who’s to say that the 1% greatness found in a line like that isn’t better than all of the keepers from a line made without intersex plants?
What percent is the acid pheno reportedly found in the Tom Hill Haze? How often do the fasciated plants show up in the haze lines? Not very often from what it seems. Yet they tend to be extremely celebrated specimens when found.
I’m definitely not saying I know more about this than others, I definitely don’t. Buy I definitely think there’s more going on than we’re fully understanding.
Is a hermie still a hermie if it hasn’t expressed it’s intersex traits yet? So to say, using pollen from a plant that in one setting doesn’t show intersex traits but in another is rife with the expression. Stress testing is one thing but how much contradictory evidence is needed to say for sure a given plant is a true male or female? To what degree do we find satisfaction.
I’m not convinced that hermies are so bad they can’t be discussed. I think there a lot of value to learning how and why they appear in lines, and it’s not just selecting for or against in my opinion. Can plants feel our energy like we can feel the energy of a room? I think so. Much love
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Thanks again I really appreciate it.
Thanks for your expert opinion! Next time it would be great if you said nothing. Hope you feel better about yourself. 
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Ah yes. Original haze/Tom hill haze is a great example.
That’s a loaded question. So let me first share a few screenshots from the man himself, as well as one from GMT “the man that can keep Tom on his toes”, bright man this GMT.
Etc…
These “males” are really XX “females” or “highly staminate females”. When tested for an Y marker, they come out negative.
In the original haze, the clean up on aile 9 phenos are reported to be about 5% of plants grown.
I think haze being 16-18(or more) weeks of flower, nobody took the time to really grow say 100 and have them all tested for a y marker.
I would think that doing so, and rectifying the ratios to 5050 m/f, would alter the occurrence of the acid pheno for the better. Most(all?) Haze growers tend to open pollinate or start with only a few and 1:1 with what they have.
Tom himself said that growing haze is a labor of love, and venturing into higher numbers (and plenty of room) come at great expense to the grower. Long flowering, no yeild, 5% keeper is of little interest to the few that have the means to undertake such a project.
I’d think so.
One thing that stuck with me is when I asked dankwolf if he’d give an hermie male or female even a chance. (When he was looking for a skunk male)
His answer was that he would give it a try. A final decision can’t only be reached through progeny testing. The main reason for his openness to such lines is that most of his keepers are on “shaky grounds” sexually. Ie late nanners or occasional 3rd week of flow balls…
One last thing.
I only partially remember the exchange, but there was talk about older vs newer, monoceious vs diocious, and the former being easier to fix trait onto, and the simple explanation as to why a whole array of elites have the hermie tendency.
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weird. did it pollinate itself?
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It did. Most pollinated calyxes had 2 seeds.
I had never seen anything like it.
2 seeds and a nanners in a single pod. The confusion reached new heights. Hah
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That’s fascinating. The seeds were actually separate from one another in the same calyx, not fused together as twins? I wonder if there were more than one ovule in the calyxes. Much love
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Yep. 2 distinct, well formed seeds.
I think it was samskunkman, or one of the ogs, anyway - who talked about “perfect flowers” being exceedingly rare. The same member also mentioned that self pollinating males would make 4 seeds per whatever this is called, i don’t know anymore 
I must have won the lotto.
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I disgard the seeds found intersex males. To make sure I can identify proper male to female ratios in the future.
But maybe some breeders dont. I ended with with 8 males and four females of a particular IBL. The males were all frosty even the non intersex males, somewhat less then the ones with intersex traits. Female’s were semi sterile. Extremely high quality flower was produced by the females and males. Including the nonintersex males. Other frosty males i have used has produced much better females in the progeny compared to using males of little frost and no intersex traits bred to the same female. So to me everything youve posted makes sense except the y chromosome thing with males not really being males. Because it would not produce good flower if it was not a Y instead of a shity X.
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This makes it all clear as a bell, they had to have added the seed from the males too from the IBL to achieve that high of a male ratio. 
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I suspect quite a few breeders are unknowingly using hermie males in their breeding program.
One in particular swears he always breeds with true males and at same time half of his posts are about his lines being 70% female…
The frost on males I’d think is just a trait that can pop up anytime you shuffle a deck, it’s possible that it’s more frequent in highly intersex inviduals or those being passive carriers of the gene.
In the previous example by gmt, in that particular case he’s speaking for s1/fem progeny. The same logic applies when breeding with males and females.
“Hermie males” are indeed females, sporting xx chromosomes. This was tested in the lab a few years back
I’d say the only part that’s not entirely true is the bit talking about x to autosome vs active Y as a sex determining event.
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I do agree. I bred some afgani/Hindu kush/bubba to a frosty Thai skunk male that showed a few hairs. Offspring was fantastic during testing. No hermies.
The same mother had been previously used to a non frosty male that showed no intersex traits,but from a line discontinued from horrible herm issues. Most of the crosses were unusable from that male. Unfortunately I was not able to breed the Thai Skunk with another female to provide more info for you that would of regarded the potential outcomes. So it is hard to really concrete this as a usable example. But something to think about i suppose…
Thanks for hitting me back so fast @Mithridate
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The story here is actually a little deeper than simply XX males causing Hermie’s and/or nanners. Sex in cannabis is determined by a specific coding on a seed. “Male” plants can be XX, xy, yy…the expression of pollen sacs is made if the seed is encoded to be male with the sex marker.
Does anyone think that there is some other mechanisms going on other than the XY phenomenon. We are talking about secondary metabolites being affected too. What happens to the male when you hit it with excess ethylene? What happens to females that have a higher ethylene signature? These might be associated with other autosomal functions that are significant when inherited in the certain combinations.
Tell me more about this
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What would you like to know?
I’m still trying to figure that plant out 
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I am not a botanist but I have grown THOUSANDS of “ full grown, outdoor, mature” plants. Intersex ability is a survival trait to ensure survival of that plants genetic heritage. They will ALL do it if stressed enough. I have a poly-hybrid that I have been breeding for 20 years. I always get at least one plant that declares itself to be male and then produces a few female flowers. These are the most resinous plants that I have ever seen. The entire plant is covered in resin glands. Even the male flowers have resin glands growing on them. But get this, The females are perfectly normal and do not show any intersex traits at all.
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