Here’s a concept I thought might be fun and keep everybody full on seeds. The idea is we create a seed exchange like a P2P network. In the spirit of overgrow! The establishment of this concept would create a network, whereby every participant has nearly free access to a wide pool of genetics from other participants. Free seeds when you want them, and if you do, cross them with something new and then share-alike by sending out your cross when asked.
Here’s the procedure and rules:
Request seeds.
Receive seeds.
Cross with new strain.
Distribute to new requestors.
Rules:
Each person who receives seeds breeds them with something, breeder’s choice.
Each person who receives seeds must agree to send their new cross to 2-4 other people. They own and keep the rest. Seeds should not be distributed to more than 4 people for use in the program. The intention is to create a deep family tree, and attempt to keep it from getting too wide.
By participating, you agree to send seeds to no fewer than 2 participants and no more than 4. You cannot sell them to any participants. You must pay for postage. By requesting seeds, you agree to send seeds and pay for postage to minimum 2 other participants. You cannot decline to send seeds to fewer than 2 people. You are not required to send seeds until someone has asked for them.
Each person who receives seeds must enter their new cross in a database (to be developed) prior to distribution. It is assigned a hash and can be given an alias (strain name) for tracking the family history of the line.
New genetics must be added each generation. Breeding a line to itself is not permitted – neither familial, selfing or hermaphroditic selfing.
Breeding one line to a separate line is permitted and encouraged; however, if a person receives seeds from two separate lines and crosses them, they must agree to send to 2-4 people for each line received (4-8 people).
There are no limitations and no restrictions to what a breeder can do with either the seeds they received or the seeds they created. This cannot be controlled anyway, so we agree from the start that when we participate in the project we forego any claim to intellectual or creative property rights. After all, this is gonna be like Napster for seeds…
After a while, I think we’ll be creating and passing around the deepest polyhybrids in the world. Perhaps an advanced look into our future? Perhaps a way to create super strains that grow well in a variety of conditions? Perhaps a new kind of evolutionary breeding by “survival of the most desirable”? Perhaps this is how we win against the larger forces that would like to monopolize our plant. Who knows what a few years of P2P will bring… it’s an experiment!
I will say this, from a genetics stand point, one more massively multi polyhybrid isn’t going to mess up the gene pool. You might even create something new and novel.
I absolutely love the idea, I will like to say, send back to the person who’s given the original seeds a pack, quick example, I give a skunk f2 to someone else who’s is going to f3 that one also with another genetics , it will be awesome to get some back, and yeah after that send to another 2 to 4,
I mean you are already using a female and a male of the same strain… why do not preserve the original parents in a next filial generation, sorry to add this on the top I don’t really want to mess up with your idea. Also if there is not agree, the mail idea itself still been awesome
The “take this and cross it with that just because” is something we all should NOT do ever…
Breeding projects should have a goal from the start, like:
plant A has great flavor and potency but can’t stand by itself as she misses a good stem system so I search a male with strong stalks/stems and light smell to cross with, to give the progeny the best from both parents;
We should all try to strengthen the genetic pool, not pollute it…
DS
Can agree to parts of this. However, in general I disagree. Yes, a finished product at time of Public release is expected. However the journey of 1000 miles begins with the first step. Consider this step one
In general, I agree with your sentiment; however, I’d like to challenge the implication that this project has no goals, and also the context under which I think your statement applies.
The first major goal is to determine the consequences (if any) that a massively deep polyhybrid will create. Regardless of what people “should” be doing, it is clear that this exact process is already happening in the world of legal cannabis, only with a monetary exchange (cash for seeds). I’d assert that the majority of first familial generation polyhybrid croses being sold today had no goal in mind. If there were ever a goal for first familial generation polyhybrid crosses, then it’s a very shallow goal, as not much can really be achieved other than a hopeful guess and what the resulting phenotype should be. How many breeders out there really understand the dominant/recessives within an first familial generation polyhybrid cross program?
The second goal is to create strains that are more or less “consensus bred”. Just like first familial generation polyhybrid crosses, you only have control over 1 generation of breeding. However, you decide which lines you want to take and when. In that sense, it becomes evolutionary. The tree will fan out wider than any of us can support, so some lines will naturally fall by the wayside, while others will emerge in the survival of the fittest.
Additionally, this experiment would have some things that no single breeder can provide – propagation and adaptation through numerous environments. If someone has a ton of PM in their basement, and they grow a line and it has poor resistance, who will want it? By survival of the fittest, it may simply fall out of the pack.
Anyway, that’s my $0.02. Like I said, it’s an experiment. There are mechanisms for improving the lines and keeping the genotype moving forward, they just aren’t “traditional” ones.
The majority of seeds sold today are far from being F1 as much as you or me from walking on water …
F1 doesn’t mean " cross of 2 strains" but " cross of 2 UNRELATED strains "
Wording isn’t casual…
Ds
Basically a giant tester pool hoping for that one crazy cross. Then what though? That person with the rest of the seeds probably gets greedy and wants to sell them.
I donno
Unfortunately, wording has become fairly casual, and yes the common usage of F1 is not technically correct as you point out. First familial generation polyhybrid cross is more appropriate, but nobody ever says that.
But I am with you about the importance of wording, and I will go back and edit my post to reflect it.
Yes and no… Greed is human nature. Someone would obviously try to sell seeds at some point. I’m not sure that really matters. If you’re participating in the p2p, at least you won’t have to pay to get them. It’s a very transient way to look at the process… maybe more eastern than western. Strains could be stabilized off of some of the lines, but I’m personally more interested in the evolution than the permanence.
I personally would like to see these bad genetics that might arise out of non goal oriented breeding program. Would also like to know what the scientific definition of unrelated is when talking about genetics.
I personally would like to see these bad genetics that might arise out of non goal oriented breeding program.
Survival of the fittest happens. It is possible someone would grow a line and describe it as “grew like shit, tasted like shit, got PM, got russets, didn’t get me high” and someone else would still want to grow it. That would kinda be hilarious too… People propagate all kinds of whack ass bastardized looking strains for interest sake, so who knows. Maybe there’s even a place in the world for “world’s worst cannabis strain”. But in general I think people’s desire to acquire good genetics will drive the improvements of generic lines forward, and will terminate lines that have no positive qualities.
Just because there is no singular goal (other than the goals I’ve stated above), doesn’t mean participating individuals can’t have goals. Maybe I’ve read someone’s grow journal about some p2p strain and thought for some reason it would pair perfectly with something else I have in my collection for various reasons. I could have a goal, it just might not be the same as someone else’s.
Would also like to know what the scientific definition of unrelated is when talking about genetics.
AFAIK it’s a pretty soft definition. There has to be a certain number of allele’s in common, and same number of chromosomes. Beyond that, it’s a sliding scale. Cannabis has had a migratory path through Eastern and Central Asia and out to the rest of the world. There is no line between “related” and “unrelated”, there is only “more related” and “less related”.
I love the P2P concept of the genetics. Like an “OG” strain but here is where you lose me… Too many hands in the picnic basket. Many on OG already make friendly crosses of each other’s genetics. But there only needs to be 1-2 “breeders” in a project like this…
All seeds are collected from each member that wants to contribute a “strain”. Split amongst the growers who then grow out each select phenos of males and females, make cuttings,
Etc…etc…etc… for a really long time.
For a proper project to create something stable, that we could share as a community.
Now as a genetic concept to include as many lineages as possible in a seed base to create like all the good and bad recessive traits…this IS an interesting concept. If this were the premise of this project I would be all in. We would need to pre-determine who goes male and who goes female. And every couple goes around we would need to inter-breed them. This now interests me much.
It’s true that we only need a few breeders. In 3 months time, I can make more seeds than I can grow in my entire life. We all know the potential wealth we are sitting on (not monetary wealth). We just need a way to unlock it through sharing.
What I can’t do is make enough different genotypes to grow something different for my entire life, and neither can just one or two breeders. So the idea is to figure out how to create a network where everybody participates and everybody shares. Like peer to peer networks, if you download something, you must also upload.
With many participants, you quickly have many “download” choices. I believe that in this scenario, the good breeding lines will naturally rise to the top, while the worst ones will be forgotten. Like in P2P the music and movies that nobody wants become hard to find.
But people would be free to join or leave the network as they wish. If all of the lines fail and nobody wants any seeds from the network anymore, then it simply stops existing. It’s hugely experimental. If it’s successful, then the network will expand greatly, and we will all have a huge range of genetics to choose from at any time, and only ever pay for shipping costs.
I can understand why this idea is scary. But you should only be scared of this taking over if you’re trying to make money on real breeders backs as a pollen chucker. I don’t think P2P would ever replace traditional breeding, but it might supplement it and boost it in ways that are not currently available. It keeps a lot of genetics in existence as components of massive polyhybrids. I think it could help add a lot of diversity to the industry. It might also be an incentive to learn real breeding, as anyone in the network will already have open access to pollen chucked genetics.
I’d also like to point out that I’ve specified only crosses as being fair game in the network. Unlike traditional P2P we will avoid infringement on breeders IP by not allowing distribution of strain reproductions.
Why the forced limitation of only sharing the seeds with only 2-4 people? 2-4 should be a minimum of sharing, but why not make the seeds available to anyone who is willing to participate?
Mostly for project goals – to encourage variety in what’s out there, rather than consolidate. There’s obviously no limit to how many people you can distribute them to for purposes outside of continuing lines in the p2p network. Give them away to anyone you choose. They’re your seeds.
But now that I’m thinking about it, there’s a certain aspect of not having the restriction that I like as well… it would also be cool to see what evolves from a more competitive atmosphere, where people are trying to breed the most requested strain.
The one stipulation I would consider would be to not sell any seeds that come from this project, but that they are given away freely. I don’t see it as a competition, but a matter of getting the most seeds out to the most people. Perhaps only 2-4 people would be entering their crosses into the proposed database, but the remainder of the seeds are to be gifted away?
Naturally. This is the reason I think partnerships and collaborations between 2-3 people will be more efficient. If you maintain personal long term relationships, everyone will be fair and share success, as it works both ways. After all, breeding takes a long time which can be reduced with another party helping out.
The largest risk would be introducing someone new to the group who might have ulterior motives… anything public will never work.
I wouldn’t call myself a breeder until I produce something worth talking about. However, there are many here like @Craigson15 and @lefthandseeds who would be a pleasure to work with.
