Been looking around on smaller seed banks, and notice a lot of S1 beans. Like they have a GG#4 S1.
I know a S1 is done when you self a plant.
But what happens with those seeds. Can they be used for breeding or are they unstable?
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They are not clones.
but closer to clones than siblingsā¦ not sure if that makes sense 
Cheers
G
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Of course they can be used to breed with. If not, we wouldnāt have any of the 5000 hype crosses that we have to weed through nowdays. Lol
Do not expect a replica of the clone though. Not even close most of the time.
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So S1s are only as phenotypically stable as their parent. So if you take something super inbred like deep chuck. An S1 will be extremely similar to the parent sense both sets of chromosomes are very similar. If you self a F1 cross you have a greater chance of a similar plants than an f2 but should still expect variation.
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Iām not an expert, but my understanding is that as stated above, if you are dealing with an inbred line the selfed seeds will be very similar, but if they are from new crosses or loaded up with lots of polyhybrids in the lineage the S1 will act like a sort prism revealing all of that varied genetic potential in a range of genetic/phenotypic expressions. In this way S1 could be used to pheno hunt and to āreadā the genetics contained in a plant.
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So the variation of S1 plants has to do with how healthy the plant that was selfed was. Because if it was sick the seeds will be sick.
Other than that though, a S1 is good enough for a breeding regime without having something like a massive influx of hermies or such. (Variation applied due to mother plant)
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the prism effect you are describing is caused by homozygosity at different loci in the offspring. In easy terms the genes have a chance to rearrange and new recessive traits pop out.
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healthy isnāt exactly accurate. We are talking about the level of difference between each plant not its vigor or growth rate.
Edit but yes I would only self a healthy plant. life it to short to waste time on sick plants.
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Letās say, in a perfect world, the seeds of the S1 come from a completely healthy plant. These seeds wonāt have a predestination to weird genetic defects because of the selfing process?
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A locus refers to the location on the chromosome where the gene is found. Loci is the plural form of locus."
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sorry. they are they same version of the same gene at the same location within both chromosomes. If you have a punnet sqare crossing Aa x Aa leads to a 1/4 recessive phenos. Same chances as selfing a f1. weird stuff pops out sometimes. GG4 is famous for having trash s1s
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If the parent plant was hiding a recessive disease it would pop out in s1 seeds. If you mean healthy as in zero genetic diseases hiding then yes. Your seeds could look nothing like the parent, or only 1/8th of them or less if the parent was an f1 cross vs something f20+? like deep chunk.
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Yea, I was just using it as an example. I just want to make sure if I grab some S1 beans I wonāt be cursed with hermies.
So S1 seeds are like throwing a dart genetically speaking. You can find winners or losers.
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When CSI dropped all the S1ās I was snatching them up left and right. Listening to pot cast interview with nspecta. First listen through all I heard was that itās easy to find something better than the mother. Wonāt be duplicate of mother and the third time through interview he said that 40/50 % are going to be trash. Iām not trashing anything unless itās truly truly fād up from the get go. So kind of bummed as I heard what I wanted to hear and he said he was steering people away from S1ās to his crosses which should be banging but Iām interested in the clone only aspect of these. Holy smokes that was windy! My 2 cents anyway.
If My understanding is off please feel free to correct me as this is all second/ third hand info. Cheersš
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S1 seed from polyhybrids should really be viewed primarily as breeding seed or genetic preservation. You may get a ākeeperā from S1 seed, but Cannabis suffers inbreeding depression (inbred defects and in seed production as you progress in S gens.)
Npsecta has sort of realized this and is starting to make more refined hybrids by taking lines to S2 (maybe further in the future) before he makes and releases a hybrid. This allows a breeder to both purge more deleterious recessive alleles, as well as increase homozygousity of the parent lines. When you make the hybrid, heterosis is restored and you have highly uniform plants from seed with hybrid vigor.
If you want variation, an S1 of polyhhybrid or F1 will segregate like an F2. The polyhybrids will also be more variable then the S1 hybrids which will be more variable than the S2 hybrids.
Alsoā¦ to the original post. If you are using the term āunstableā as Cannabis people use it to refer to intersexed plants: no. Reversing does not introduce intersexuality as a trait in the offspring of the reversed plant. If you self a plant that goes intersexed anyways, yes. You will likely retain or reinforce that trait (which is likely controlled by autosomal genes).
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Man, genetics are both marvelous and fucking irritating. Sometimes wish it was more like baking where you mix two things and get one output. Instead, itās more like you mix chocolate and peanut butter and you get a spectrum of outputs of anywhere from āReeseās Cupā to āTree and More Treeā and youāll have to sift through all your outcomes to find the thing you tried to make in the first place.
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I would generally agree. you have better odds but yes there is a gambling element to it. Gentics are funny that way, Nature loves variation and we are trying to fight that in a weird way. It opens us up for disease to wipe us out (look at bananas as an example) but we control the environment so it should be okay.
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While we are on the topic of breeding with S1s, can anyone who has first hand experience speak to the difference in bring 2 S1s from the same mother together vs taking it to S2?
I understand this will depend on the genetic diversity of the line, and taking it to S2 will be more inbred so a quicker route to both a true breeding line & inbreeding depression, but havenāt really heard anyone expand on this aspect much.
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using 2 different plants increases variation while going to s2 in theory reduces it. Someone correct me if I am wrong. We are so deep into hypothetical about mystery plants at this point I am trying imagine it and getting weird results. None of what I am saying is factoring recombination frequencies , incomplete penetrance of traits, or leathal alle combinations.
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