Deficiencies In Nutrition, Or Genetics?

[LimeGreen]

A little background here, before this potentially controversial post. I was born in the late 60s, meaning I was introduced to cannabis in the 70s, and by the early 80s as a teenager I was imbibing. Back then, seed was super viable. You could roll a joint, throw your seeds and stems from the tray out the window, or into a pot of garbage soil, and almost all would germinate right on top of the soil with a little water. In the late 80 the worked genetics I purchased from The Seed Bank was still hardy and vigorous like that.

Fast forward to 2013, after 21 years of not using primarily due to job requirements, I become a patient under CA 215 MMJ laws. First of all, I found out Skunk wasn’t skunky anymore what a bummer! Anyone who ever smoked the heavily resinous, extremely pungent and potent Humboldt Skunk, in both the lime green and dark but frosty purple varietals, knows what I’m talking about. Yes, it was “RKS” as it gets, if that’s the moniker you want to use.

The next thing I discovered is the $100 10 packs of seed I tried were almost all invariably poor in germination rates. I mean only 4 or 6 $10 seeds per pack of regulars would germinate, and then when culling for males, you might end up with 2 or 4 females for $100. I wasn’t digging it, and started buying clones for a bit.

Furthermore, the limited growing I did in the late 80s, as well as what people I knew grew, was done almost effortlessly. Pop a seed, put it in the ground with no amendments, and water with a garden hose until the thing was taller than your fence or house eaves, honest 6 to 10 footers. No real problems with pests, nute deficiencies, nutrient lockout, PH problems or anything of the such. Hell I knew of one guy in the mild So Cal climate that revegged, and grew the same plant out for 3 different seasons!

Yeah, I learned to adapt and grow under the “new normal” for a bit so to speak, but it nagged at me. We like to bandy around the phrase that “cannabis is adaptable”, but honestly in my experience and opinion, it had lost its adaptability. I have my own philosophy as to why, and that’s a thread of own.

Suffice it to say, everytime I would see an online post with a nutrient deficiency, I would see it as a genetic deficiency of non adaptable cannabis. This kicked in my breeder instincts before long. I have bred everything from rats, dogs, horses, cattle, and poultry, to fix various traits over the last 35 years. So, about 6 years ago, I began a breeding project with cannabis, having two main goals. Primarily, I wanted to get back to the vigor, and hardiness we once saw. Secondarily I wanted to see if we could shake loose the old pure Skunk types of yesteryear’s majesty. The best OG or Chem has a part of it, but it’s mixed a bit, and kind of mellowed down to like a 6 or 7 out of 10.

About this time I was gifted a mixed 25 to 40 year old seed collection. Because of the work I had going on there, good fortune fell my way again, and was gifted a few more collections.

I’m happy to report, I was able produce some absolute rockstar seed stock in terms of hardiness, and ease of growing traits by using mostly the heirloom seed stock to breed with. These have been grown out the last few years by folks in different climates, with minimal care, giving a great yield, and a very good finished product. In at least a half dozen cases,this was accomplished pretty much with water only in soil.

While I did get in the realms of burnt rubber, and other nasty chemical type of scents, the old Skunk type alone is elusive. Unfortunately, other pursuits have taken me overseas the last couple years where growing and smoking are highly illegal. This has brought my breeding work on this front to a halt.

Is there anyone else out there trying to restore or breed more adaptable, hardy, easy growing cannabis? Does anyone else see the current gene pool as the deficiency, and not the nutrients, or am I the lone crazy guy?

I look forward to any replies.

[Bob13]

Heyo, very interesting you say this.
Im relatively new to this so i havent started breeding photoperiod regs for outdoors but i have built a small collection of hardier strains (supposedly) that i will be trying out. My end goal is to produce a strain that will thrive around 52n and flower in time.

From my understanding cannabis in general has been grown and bred indoors or atleast has lived a pampered lifestyle for maybe the last 50 years and of course it has adapted. We cull the weak ones, cherry pick the fat frosty buds and fast growers and we dont know what we are missing out on with the ones we dont breed with. I heard about new cannabinoids discovered that people want to breed for and i have no way of telling if my plants would have that even if i bought seeds from a guy saying it has it.

Anyway. To conclude, i believe to regain real strength and vigour the plant needs to be able to seed and return the following year in a wild enviroment without any human inteference (no helping!) Its going to be looser buds and not so much thc but within a year i have already learned a strain labelled 12% thc can get me higher than a strain labelled 30% so thc isnt everything.

[LimeGreen]

Thanks Bob for the thoughtful reply. Regarding your development of something to grow well at your far north location, I would just say start with known fast finishers, and stick to rigid selection pressures. I had access, and purchased many clones,and a fair amount of different seed varietals. I could have babied them along, and some I did for personal consumption. But I can tell you only a handful or so of anything commercially available made it into the breeding room or greenhouse. Super Skunk was one that despite its Amsterdam heritage, simply performed for me under a variety of conditions. One test I ran in the greenhouse with indoor starts from March to May, with no climate control. Some days would start at 34F, and by afternoon be as high as 109F. Many of the heirlooms tolerated that. Wifi Alien OG was another of the few commercial outliers that is a very tough cultivar.

Yes, from the 80s to now, most seed stock is based from European seed producers, and was grown in homogeneous, almost sterile conditions. Climate controlled, ,bottle fed on nutrients, PH adjusted water, everything ipretty deal for the plant. Likewise, from the 1980s to the 2000s, it was primarily sold to indoor growers, and worked well given the same type of conditions. However, much of it is no longer suited to an outdoor environment, or without a lot of pampering indoors. With the continuing emergence of legalized cannabis, the demand for some bomb proof genetic stock is there. One guy who grew some stuff bred from the heirloom stock I worked and distributed reported back “You kind of changed my life. I tried growing before, and it never came out very good. Now all my friends, and their friends all want this bud, and think I’m some kind of master grower or something!”.

You mentioned new cannabanoids, or we could even say rare ones. I have not tested anything I’ve bred or worked with. But I’d venture a guess and say they contain a more diverse, and certainly a more balanced cannabanoid profile. The varying effects from the different heirloom varietals used are a strong evidence of it.

I agree with you that a landrace type setting with no intervention is pretty much the ultimate test, kind of like wild Mustangs in herds out in the desert of Nevada. Certainly the drive towards high THC content is another hit on an already degraded cannabis gene pool. In striving for high THC alone, we are discarding the balanced cannabanoid profiles found in landrace cannabis
That approach is also upsetting the perhaps even more diverse profiles of slightly worked, but high performance cannabis with more moderate THC percentages, but which have absolutely brilliant effects to them.

[beacher]

Interesting read. Even as someone who has only grown for about 15 years I’ve definitely noticed some differences between more modern genetics and older ones… hermaphroditism being the most notable.

I’m curious if you agree with the common convention that modern weed is much stronger than older strains? And if not necessarily stronger do you feel modern cultivars are just different somehow in regards to the high?

[cannabissequoia]

@LimeGreen

I was born in the late 60s

You were about ten when I sprouted

@LimeGreen

Anyone who ever smoked the heavily resinous, extremely pungent and potent Humboldt Skunk

It was like taking a f’n bath in skunk-weed.
I only got that superb bag once, circa '96(late in the game) but an OZ in my pocket & my mom thought I’d gotten sprayed. “Nah mom, it’s this WEED!”

That was a memorable ounce. Hotboxing the motorcycle helmet, the gas-mask bong aka "“The GMB”, the works…

So, yes, OGers, the old as nor-cal skunk made an impact on you.

@LimeGreen

the old Skunk type alone is elusive.

@LimeGreen

Is there anyone else out there trying to restore or breed more adaptable, hardy, easy growing cannabis?

That RKS is one of the current 'El Dorado’s in our world. And you betcha, there’s people trying to everything and anything with weed, even a few doing the sensible work you’re talking about.

@LimeGreen

Does anyone else see the current gene pool as the deficiency, and not the nutrients, or am I the lone crazy guy?

I’m probably talking out of my league on this, but we’re ALL nuts here and the changes in the gene pool are wild, considering the relative short period of time.

“Bottlenecking” is controversial but in my opinion needs serious addressing; There are indeed breeders doing preservation work (Bob Hemphill, et al.) but I don’t think all of them are on the internet yet.

I think more fundamentally, is cultivation practices changed & the number of people at it grown.

The chances of pre-1970 wild/feral Cannabis being encountered are slim-to-none from what I’ve heard.

Witness “The Strainhunters” on you-tube; Greenhouse Seed Co of Holland went out hunting for the rare landraces all over but left feminized modern poly-hybrid crap with the locals everywhere they went.

Tangentally, I don’t fault the hashmakers & remote growers for being eager to jump into the modern world of weed, but in my opinion, HELL YES there’s a lot of work to be done.

We’re still barely into quasi-decriminilization as it is. Given that, it’s amazing to see it all & experience this special place in time.

[Gpaw]

@LimeGreen

Does anyone else see the current gene pool as the deficiency, and not the nutrients, or am I the lone crazy guy?

OH HELL no!!
I remember the way weed tasted, smelled and grew in the 70’s, it wasn’t these delicate hot house pansies we have now!
I was in line at the local dispensary as soon as weed went legal here. A couple trips in to test out samples and I was astonished at the almost universal bland taste of the offerings.
Crap… but Pretty Crap…
So that got me back into growing, starting with dutch genetics… Almost all of those offerings are identified as indoor /outdoor plants. Well, that is technically true, but from what I’ve seen and read, most genetics do not have the ability to deal with bugs, mold and other outdoor challenges.
Now I’m looking at projects involving old seeds and landraces to play with, as I’m convinced that most of the polyhybrid genetics are indoor only.
If we are going to overgrow the planet we need beasts not pussies for breeding tools.
AND we need RKS too!

Cheers
G

[lefthandseeds]

Hey @LimeGreen, great post and very interesting insights. You have more experience than I do, so I rely on this kind of information to help guide my expectations and ideas about things that were before my time.

I think one thing that you mention that really struck with me is that the adaptability of cannabis seems to be degrading over time. One major difference that I see is that the genetics of “mainstream” cannabis seem to be mostly far downstream genetics stemming from the same handful of heirlooms or landraces. These have become a bit of a “crutch” for breeders, who are mostly averse to introducing anything truly new into their genetics. Maybe there is a lot of haze out there today, but 95%+ comes from two haze males. When the world trades clones instead of seeds, then the same stuff keeps getting recycled into the polyhybrid pool over and over. In truth, the gene pool isn’t terribly wide. All of chem today comes from a couple seeds. OG Kush, Triangle Kush are in just about everything, and reintroduced several times over. The exact same stuff they grow in California, they grown in Colorado. Then add pollen chucking on top of it… Now you have the same exact male running on top of several different female clones, and then you end up doing the same thing to the other side of the equation, if you are even buying regular seeds at all.

Only part of cannabis’ adaptability comes from epigenetics, and outcrossing seems to me to be a primary driver of it. I would have questioned whether genetics are really being bottlenecked, but this seems to be a common theme among people who have the experience to have seen it happen. It also seems like most people reminisce to the 80s as being a pivotal time, where some fairly radical expressions were discovered… but perhaps also when people started cracking fewer seeds, especially landrace varieties, and instead started focusing on finding and circulating clones.

It’s a lot more work for sure to germinate seeds and find everything yourself. I don’t think the attention deficit disorder of the legal market has the patience for it, and certainly it’s a bad business model for anyone trying to base a livelihood off of it. While on the other hand, the sheer volume of the seed market is making it hard for home growers and hobby breeders to focus on any one thing long enough to make something special out of it. Who wants to wade through a pile of wispy old low potency landrace sativas when you can just hop into hybrids off the mainstream strains and get a much higher success rate.

The “old work” of the 60s and 70s is mostly gone, but I think there is also currently a new wave of thoughtful preservationists who are collecting varieties – especially in remote areas of India. And there is a new group of people interested in growing them and building up new heirlooms and strains, incorporating them with the popular stuff or finding what unique things they can offer to the genepool.

Anyway, I think it’s still an exciting time to be a part of the evolution of Western cannabis. I only hope that once the legal market is completely taken over by progressively larger corporations, that there will still be resistance cells of people ignoring the money and continuing to forge new paths. Don’t give up. Don’t let dispensaries tell you what to smoke. Viva la revolución!

[Hephaestus]

I think it’s as much where you get your genetics…

I have friends actively hunting out old bc hippie guerilla growers seeds and clones.

Those have consistently been grown outdoors decent crossing to the new “popular” strains but still have the hardy genetics.

But they’re still very much stuck in the 60/70s and you’re not about to find those genetics online. You’ve really gotta know one of them sadly.

[Who]

@LimeGreen I am even older, and was smoking in the late 60’s, I was young. But would agree with you on some of this,most of this, Smell was bred out by alot of people because of the war on drugs and not wanting to get busted, there still breeding paranoia out, they have drastically changed the flower time, hard to get strains that in some way are not related and I think at least for me that adds to the resistance problem. so when they breed these traits out,what else do we lose?
I think breeding for med strains has changed things, seed catalogs now say “clear headed”. Nobody I know in the 70’s was asking for “clear headed” thats what cigs were for. Now they talk about hybrid vigor? and like you mentioned they used to be very viable, Seed prices yeah us older guys are going to think its crazy and it is but look around a candy bar that cost a nickel in 1970 is now over a dollar, gas was 35 cents a gallon…so it wasnt just seeds. what I think is wrong is all the crosses, instead of working it to achieve a stable maybe 4 pheno’s instead of like you have to pheno hunt with as many seed as you can. so even when you end up with the 4 fems there not what was described or you wanted. another thing i notice with comercial seed of today that so far i have aquired, they are super small and if you opened 3 different packs by different breeders even they all look close to the same, and no markings just brown. I am sure there are people that are working on, no i know that since joining OG I found a member who is trying to bring back a strain that was local in Michigan, and I hope they suceed. Hope isnt lost, the real culprit in my eyes are the gov. bodies. Seen it go from they barley cared to they kill yah for it and at the same time the majority of people are saying they want it. in 1967 lsd was legal in the united states . I think the first state to outlaw pot was AZ and they did it for racist reasons. I should edit this lol but not going to.

[Meesh]

I honestly don’t know shit from shinola about breeding, but I was born in 72 and have spent my life in So Cal. I would sell my mother for the skunk of my youth.

[nube]

You’re a man after my own heart with regards to it’s a weed and it should grow like one. I completely agree that people spend too many calories on babying their plants and buy or do useless and unnecessary shit in the pursuit of more/better/stronger/faster. A lot of that has to do with unscrupulous salespeople praying on people unequipped to research, shop around, etc. The weed industry, being black market for so long, has succumbed to charlatans and snake oil peddlers dominating the market. Hype is greater than all.

I think about weed like I think about tomatoes in my garden here at a mile high in Colorado. The varieties that I’d grow outside need to be suited to my climate to finish before the first frost. There are tons of varieties I could grow that would get 10ft tall but would never set fruit and ripen by October 1. There’s nothing inherently wrong with those varieties, they’re just wrong for my environment. The same goes for weed plants. And it turns out, I’m growing them indoors so I can grow whatever I want and provide their optimal environment.

It’s been my experience that size and pest resistance don’t have much to do with the quality of the end product, so I stopped considering them when I think about my enjoyment of the plants or their produce. I grew up around tons of wild hemp that was super big and pest resistant, took everything you could throw at it, never got any fertilizer, and still produced 3ft long colas, even in the driest of droughts or the earliest of frosts. I still wouldn’t smoke it. If I were growing outdoors for profit, I would consider these characteristics, but I’m not. Just like with any cultivated crops, fertilizing and using IPM will improve any cultivar no matter where it’s grown, but again, the best outdoor crops are suited to their environment. That’s why we have the growing zones.

There are a few breeders that do consider pest and mold resistance when they breed and select their males - bodhi seeds is one, another is strayfox gardenz, and dominion seeds is another. I’ve had very good luck with most of their plants, but they traditionally don’t breed exclusively with the hype strains sold at dispensaries.

Also keep in mind that almost all of the popular strains in the last 5 years come from some questionable genetics that are inbred to a ridiculous extent. Cookies, OG, GG4, and Chem dominate the market but crosses made with them aren’t necessarily good or bad. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder when it comes to drugs.

[Who]

sorry but i have to ask, I have lead a sheltered life…what is RKS?

[Gpaw]

Road Kill Skunk. Mid flower, that’s what is smells like.
First cousin of Cat Piss.
It smokes much better than it smells … kind of like Limburger cheese that way.
Yeah, I know, it sounds terrible, call it an acquired taste

Cheers
G

[Who]

isnt real roadkill hard to get now? @Gpaw

[cannabliss]

I have seen it for sale seeds that is but let’s say I have always been skeptical havent found any good skunk ina very very long time but I live in prohibition land so

[Gpaw]

Yes, I don’t think you will find anyone that can show clear providence back to the original… but…
There seems to be a couple folks every month or so saying they are finding phenos by combing through old Indica seeds etc.
That gives me hope some enterprising young’n will actually gather up enough genetics and invest the effort to establishing a good seed line.
As @cannabliss says “I’m skeptical” …it is easier to spin market hype than ‘do the work’.

I hope I can get my kids interested in growing, they seem to like the smoking part!

Cheers
G

[Who]

I would like to see more more work on stabilizing, so when you buy seeds its close to buying “THE” cut. I have seen where a breeder wants $250 for a ten pack but if you want the original (a cut) it was 15 k made me wonder how many packs you need to get what there describing

[LimeGreen]

I don’t necessarily think today’s weed is stronger, even though it is testing at higher percentages of THC. Most stuff in the past probably tested 8-15%. About 5 years ago, I got an old probable Thai cultivar out of the first old seed collection I began trying to do something with. It was a terrible grower indoors, she just really craved sunshine. Nevertheless, I got a small harvest from her 14 weeks after flipping. Excitedly, I went and shared some of her, and several others in the room with the guy who gave me the collection. It was a 2 day trip, so I took my hammock to sleep in the loft. After smoking that preaumed Thai cultivar, the two of us were so stoned we couldn’t figure out how to hang the hammock! It wasn’t just that time either. Everytime I smoked that flower, I was crushed for 4 1/2 to 5 hours, and I bet she wouldn’t have gone over 12%. Sadly, she struggled so hard indoors, I ended up losing all the clones before I could get any breeding done with her, nor could I get her to reveg. I wish I had her over spring and summer. As it was, I popped the beani n the fall, and gave her some outdoor love as a young plant. That’s why I was even able to get a harvest from her was sunshine in early veg. By the time spring hit, everything was gone. But man what a cultivar! My long way of saying I don’t think modern cannabis is stronger!

I’ll throw down replies to everyone else’s great comments as I time permits.

[Who]

duh ok thanks lol , I do that to myself all the time …

[LimeGreen]

@cannabissequoia, You know the real deal with the old Skunk. Pretty much hands down, anyone who ever had the real thing remembers it with fondness as the best, or certainly among the best they ever had. How about the old Cambodian or Pressure Bong Tokes, with a gallon milk jug in the kitchen sink, or a full bath tub. Right up there with the GMB or motorcycle helmet! Good times!
I agree with your concept of bottlenecking, and really the only way out of it is to introduce more landraces and heirlooms. Certain tropical fish breeds in captivity need refreshing with wild ones over time to maintain vigor. This concept isn’t new. I mentioned Mustangs before in my comment to Bob. The same happens there everytime a horse escapes, is dumped, or two herds merge. Yes, they’re tightly inbred populations, and natural selection ensures the strong survive. Over time however, the do get that occasional infusion of new genetics. For 40 years now, that’s just not happening often in commercial grade cannabis. Boutique or craft breeders are going to largely carry the industry forward in my estimation, while douchebags in the corporate boardroom scratch their head. I agree, it’s a special time and the industry, and more over the world’s cannabis gene pool is at a real crossroads.

@Gpaw, Ain’t it the truth? Bag appeal trumps all. Word on the legit Skunk too!

@lefthandseeds Your assessment is spot on. I agree the 80s was a pivotal time. That’s when enough work had gone into the offerings of the seed banks, that they really had greatly improved cannabis, without yet encountering the common pitfalls in virtually any breeding discipline. I coined this phrase in reference to some of my animal husbandry endeavors over the years “The breeder’s job is to replicate the cruel role nature plays in selection”. Quite honestly, most breeders in any discipline aren’t very good at that. And yes, clones play an important role. They preserve what was good, and offer that far and wide over long periods of time But, they also tend to stagnate further progress and refinement as well. Amen on the hobbyist or craft revolution!

@Hephaestus Totally agreed! was fortunate to source old, elite bagseed from guys who are in their 60s. I’m pretty much a fan of anything that hasn’t come through Amsterdam. It should be noted that the Chem and OGs that dominate the dispensary scene don’t have any recent ties to Amsterdam genetics. If they do at all, its 35 or 40 years back.
@Who Absolutely the most radical terpene profiles were dumbed down because of the war on drugs. Onthe seed prices though, back in 89 I paid Nevil $6 per seed, which in today’s money is a hell of a lot more than $10 per +/- that we see today. I think there is certainly more room for stable genetics too. I also think there is room for diverse, or unstable offerings. What’s missing most often is candor about the offering.
@Meesh Those who know, know! I’m right there with you man, also a So Cal native. We probably had the same kind bud back then. Nothing compares!
@nube I wholeheartedly agree on the selection for environment. My whole focus was to create high quality offerings that performed well in a myriad of environments. I also concur that size or yield, as well as resistance properties aren’t synonymous with high quality. My point only being that wouldn’t it be nice to have it all, and not have to compromise? You’re right in that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. In this industry, there’s an ass for every saddle, and usually some very passionate ones!
@Who If the genetics are not stable, I’d like to see honesty. For example, I have an F1 from an Afghani x my old and uncirculated Jarilla de Sinaloa/Cola de Borrego breeding male. I’ve never marketed seeds, but if I did, I’d be up very front in telling you there are roughly 8 distinct phenotypes, with 4 being fairly desireable keepers, including a Mexican Gold, and a hybrid type, as well ss two distinct Jarilla de Sinaloa types. You will not get Afghan types, the Sinaloa is simply too dominant. I bought some seeds from a small breeding group in Mendo old NL#5 × Panama Red IBL. The gal told me "there’s 2 phenos, a stretcher, and a chunky bush type,and most people prefer the chunky one. Grew them out, and boom, exactly that. Diversity is cool too for me, but above all is some honesty about what things are.