Selfing plants without the use of STS (dark period herms)

[Soiltech]

Need some input from some more experienced growers.

I’ve got a few projects going indoors as this winter season headed into full gear.

I had 12 seeds from 1 cross I made a few years back, I had been meaning to f2 these seeds to do a true hunt as early as next spring.: however I popped 6 seeds and I had some issues with a mouse destroying two trays of seedlings. Sadly all six of these special plants had been eaten. As it was only a couple weeks in I decided to pop the rest of the 12 seeds.

These seeds were from a mom plant - a landrace Sativa from India which was some of the best stone. After your first hit of her it felt like an instant plunge deep under water. The high was a bit shorter than most but is very heavy - you could continue to feel it assault you heavy behind your eyes. Not your everyday ‘Sativa’ experience that’s for sure. I have not smoked anything else that gave me that ‘plunge’ under water.

Well 2 - 3 weeks into flower the 4 plants that came to fruition started to flower. To my dismay all 4 are female plants.

I thought about some last minute sts - but as I was already a couple weeks into flower and it may have been another week before I could assemble some sts (I live remote) I decided to attempt an old school method I picked up from an old head.

72 hours without light - I had used this old school technique for fem seeds years ago, one of my first purposeful ‘breeding’ projects. I still have a very few seeds from those S2’s I had made from this very technique from a single bagseed of sorbetto. (S1)

To better my chances I reached out to a true OG. He’s a true farmer in every sense of the word and I’ had the privilege of growing for him for a short time.

Well the good news is after placing them in a closet with dry soil, and leaving them for about 80 hours with no light. It is now a week later and two of the plants are showing some male flowers!

The reason for this post is : is there a good reason we don’t hear about this technique?

The time I did this originally I did still have some herm tendencies down the line / but nothing too major.

I’m wondering if anyone else has experience with this, any long term fem success?

Also does anyone have any good ideas for some how knocking this line back towards regulars, I’d love to make some true f2’ regulars.

Is this just going to be another herm line? Or can I re direct this line and find my heavy hitting sour Sativa that I dream to smoke again.

[Tappy]

Curious to hear the answers to those questions.

[HolyAngel]

@Soiltech

is there a good reason we don’t hear about this technique?

This is mainly the reason:

@Soiltech

The time I did this originally I did still have some herm tendencies down the line / but nothing too major.

The similar tek to this is called Rodelization. Let the plants go way past harvest and some lines will throw nanners then, use that to make new fem beans. But either way, it’s proliferating hermaphroditic tendencies and you’ll keep seeing that show up in the line like you have been already.

You could probably clean up the trait with a stable pair and some line work… there is talk of full blown males showing up in fem beans too, but I can’t say it’s 100% a thing or not.

[Tappy]

@HolyAngel

proliferating hermaphroditic tendencies

Does using colloidal silver or sts do this too? Or just high stress herm techniques?

[HolyAngel]

That is a very good question.

So, as long as the reversal is 100% chemical, unless the plant has herm traits, you’re not proliferating anything.

The catch is, the CS and STS can be stressful on their own and cause the plant to herm if it’s capable, on top of the chemical reversal, and you won’t know which is which.

So it pays to know if your plants are stable or not.
Double catch there is, the more stable the plant, generally the harder it is to reverse and get viable pollen from

[crunkyeah]

I cannot speak to the answers to the questions regarding long-term sexual stability created by herm pollen. I don’t believe in fem pollen to begin with so my insights might be different? A different lens perhaps…

With these plants that come from the special Indian sativa, do you know if any of her daughters carry the same stone? For one that would tell you if it’s a dominant trait or not. If it doesn’t show up in the daughters (which are the F1s) then it would be a recessive trait. Might be able to find it in the ‘fem’ F2s for sure so that’s a very positive thing to think about. Downside is, you’ll have to hunt a bunch of seeds to find her. If that ‘plunge stone’ is present in the daughters then you’ll know roughly 50% of the F2 should be dominant for that stone… in theory.

Another angle… there are several landrace seed companies that have cultivars from India. It might be more cost effective to acquire a pack of landrace beans and hunt for another plant. I know you mentioned that it’s remote so if you don’t get mail then you’re doing the best you can do!

Best of luck.

[cdues21]

Cold shock the roots! Use ice water when watering your plants and there is a good chance you will stress it enough to herm. I saw an Instagram post from Todd McCormick talking about dutch growers doing this wayyy back in the day.

[Andrexl]

I ran about 8 plants which were F1 of a Fastbuds genetic made with STS reversal,they never shown herms in my harsh Summer conditions.They only foxtailed a lot and were beautiful.
Those are my only reversal Sts tested seeds,so I May be wrong.
Anyway I am doing a second One right now and I ll test 10 beans to see if I have some herming rate.

[HolyAngel]

Yeah like I said, if the parent plant was stable and chemical reversal was good, shouldn’t get any herms in the beans

[Sodapop]

Also the reason why stress testing is important in breeding fem lines!

[splinter7]

i’ve grown a lot of herm-produced seed. i can’t say that seed herms more or less than random seeds I buy that have good reps. unless someone has some information about how the genetics passed on are changing due to the use of STS or CS, then I think it is just reinforcing a known trait; that is, it can nanner up from light timing stress. Or, simply that it nanners from stresses. I think it’s pretty expected that light timing stress will produce nanners in most varieties. I have had a few that didn’t seem to care much about light pollution. i have never messed up my timer though. if a plant nanners under a condition that never happens, then why would that make it nanner under normal scenarios more? ideal case might be to find a plant that doesn’t nanner under any scenario except chemicals, but that doesn’t make herm-produced seed much different that most seed. If your plant produced nanners in an untimely way without having a known stress, then i could see it not being genetically attractive.

[Rhai88]

Why not just go for reveg, take cuts, and then STS.

I guess it would depend on the dominance of the trait you’re looking for though and hoping that it shows up in the rest of the 4 you have going.

Otherwise your route may be the only way to reproduce fem F2’s and then have to stabilize.

[rasterman]

CS/STS doesn’t proliferate hermaphroditic tendencies, but if it’s a pollination that is going to happen anyway it wouldn’t give you better seeds than stressing them with the schedule. If you stress a bunch of females without chemicals and pollinate the others with that pollen, however,you are proliferating the responsible traits by making them required for survival.

[Fuel]

It will be hard to be more clear than HolyAngel on this one ^^

@Soiltech

is there a good reason we don’t hear about this technique?

It was called selective pressure back in the day, so yes using the specimens you’re supposed to cull in screening them out isn’t really linked with fems production. Even to produce decent fems. Damn, it’s just another formulation of what HA already said lol

@Soiltech

Well 2 - 3 weeks into flower the 4 plants that came to fruition started to flower. To my dismay all 4 are female plants.

Let’s be pragmatic one minute (with good intentions, disclaimer, blablabla) and let’s talk practical breeding.Your main error is contained in this quote. You have launched these seeds without any breeding plan and even worse, without any B plan.

The seeds were old and in very restricted number, you was supposed to launch a fail safe in the same move, no matter what it is. My inputs don’t concern the selection or personal choices. Just basic planning and organization.

Making the choice to use a latent hermaphrodite you’re triggering instead to clone the ones not triggered for further development doesn’t have any sense strategically, even for your initial goal.

And even if it’s a bit against the opinion of your old guy, this step was excellent and enough radical to start clean. Today not much strains (and hyped clones) can resist this combo. It’s throwing the golden nugget to keep the clay for me.

You can temporary secure the line with a BX in emergency (got pollen here or reveg/motherize), then take the time to figure out a program to bring back the chemotype profile you’re hunting. With the reference in hand, everything still possible with enough time and dedication. And you can even have the luxury to map the said reference to really understand what make this type of potency possible, or impossible. With multiple outcross by example.

Don’t get me wrong, i totally understand your urgency. But your question come too late, the real question was : “i’m in this complicated context with this line on 12 old seeds, what are your suggestions for a breeding strategy/breeding plan ?”.

I know it don’t help right now, but for the next time maybe.

@Soiltech

Also does anyone have any good ideas for some how knocking this line back towards regulars, I’d love to make some true f2’ regulars.

Let’s say stable dioecious to appear smart. “Regulars” don’t exist, it’s just seeds like they always been.
The same seeds that initially made the majority of all old lines on which depend the vast majority of over-blended hybrids you can see today.

So you have to understand that the change have to be made in the reverse sense. It’s not about to “make it reg again” but more how to clean the mess without being destructive for the profile you’re hunting.

Taking a clone of not triggered specimen(s) was able to give you directly these clean F2 to work.

@Soiltech

Is this just going to be another herm line? Or can I re direct this line and find my heavy hitting sour Sativa that I dream to smoke again.

Yes, but it can be cleaned. It’s just a bit long and ask a good level of knowledge. Both on the line expressions but also on the expression of hermaphrodism in cannabis. Nothing that you can’t learn on front of the plants if you accept the price of the difficulty you set.

The bad side is the compromises you have to do. Instead reinforcing directly the potency you like, you’re forced to clean the line first. Then find a way to recover the expression. If the process is destructive, there is not much option but one kilogrammer of seeds and a phone call to your friend to squat one of his polytube ^^ A massive screening. This time not focused on latent herms ^^

It’s not a miracle tech, and most of the time you get a variation of the initial trait. But at the moment you catch one clean specimen, you can operate the reinforcement and the improvement.

All of it take years, indoor, and with a productive planning. In your position I will try again to source the seeds over spending 5 years on an error. I’ve some errors under my belt, don’t worry lol

There is a good point on this journey : no matter if you succeed or not, you will join the very restricted club of fems haters (welcome) in knowing the real price of a single spray on the long run and for the global genpool. It can even give you skills on fems production for one shots projects and join the massive club of my nemesis, not a joke on the skills i’m serious.

Again a wall of text, let’s show something recently culled. I de-herm too buddy, because i simply hate randomized breeding by herms and most of all … diluted, capped, unreliable and bland smokes. So I trigger them all like a machine to don’t wait after a late surprise, nothing worse that increasing the herm rate from one generation to another and discovering it only with the progeny ^^ By example.

[Soiltech]

Thank you for taking the time, your responses were thoughtful and helpful.

I wanted to write back to you with a keyboard instead of my phone, finally have a minute to sit down here.

This project was launched with one intention – to return to a rare and enjoyable stone (and hopefully the super sour taste/smell profile) . I have already accepted the fact that this may never happen, these 12 seeds were an outcross, made with the mother plant which gave the desirable traits, and a Triangle Kush cross male. I apologize I did not clearly indicate this originally.

The fact that these 12 seeds were an outcross, gives an extra layer of difficulty to returning to the original ideal traits of the mother plant. I had already accepted this challenge. Launching this project with the intention to find a true male in these 12 seeds and create a f2 line which I could hunt through. Starting with 6 seeds to reserve the remaining for ‘future work’.

I’d like to add the mother was single bract, wispy as they ever get, I was optimistic, with outcrossing to a modern hybrid, that I may possibly land on a more dense flower hopefully one day with the same effects as the mom. This landrace from India, I have now had the pleasure of growing out more than a dozen girls, all of which I grew out looking for that original stone, but only that one I grew the years before held this magical ‘Plunge’ stone. The only other lady to note, was one which put out flower which when smoked made my hands slightly tremble – powerful, but not an enjoyable effect.

At 12 seeds, my numbers were already against me, then the mouse cleanly finished the first 6, it left me with a last ditch effort without that ideal fail safe.

In this effort to continue the line I did pop the last 6. With no males to show, here we are. These were tiny hard seeds, and were a bit tough to germ leaving me with the 4 I have now.

On closer inspection, there is only 1 female with pods, and very few (2 opposite branches on the third node up) Triggering them wasn’t exactly the success I was originally hoping for, but a good omen none the less.

I will be cleaning out the rooms this winter, as I will be away for a time. I would have revegged cuts of the 3 dioecious plants that survived the stress and had a go with proper STS. Currently I will agree I am grabbing at straws – and was blissfully optimistic someone would have had a list of experiences of great successes using triggered herm for a line.

Running these plants should give me enough pollen for a small handful of seeds, I still remain optimistic in the outlook of potentially revisiting this stone again one day – but its looking like it may be a life journey with no clean promise in sight. I am pleased to see these plants have expressed with intersex very minimally, and I am hoping that in most cases the progeny will only express in the same draught/dark conditions. Another bonus is the stem rubs are all very mother leaning, its got this real sour rub with a real cedar base it hits ya in the back of the nose. Considering this and the resistance to the stress test - I’ won’t toss in the towel just yet.

A better question would have been, is there any way anyone has been able to ‘coax’ a fem seed into a true male plant. I’ve heard the same rumours of fem males @HolyAngel , 1/1000. Wonder if there is any way to improve the odds, I’ve heard the debate on predetermined sex / environmental triggers. I’m not sure what to believe, so I am willing to try anything.

[rasterman]

Many people will probably disagree with me, but I think that the sub-1% of males that come from a feminized seed run, come from accidental pollination. If this is true, you’re probably going to need to outcross.

I like your optimism. Hang onto it for dear life, because breeding comes with a lot of disappointment and waiting as well.

[splinter7]

i’ve pulled a male like this…it gave female only seeds.

[HolyAngel]

Ive seen a lot more than 1/1000 rates of males out of fem packs. Depends on the fem pack really. I’ve seen over a dozen full blown males out of less than that many packs of chem91 s1’s for instance.

Probably have a lot of luck making the plants herm to make s1 pollen tho. Mess with the lighting schedule. Draught. Etc…

Outside of making s1’s, I would also look for an outcross if you want that plant back. The closest you can get to that moms genetics as an outcross, will give you the best odds of her showing up again.

[rasterman]

I’m going to try to make a VX-1000 regular strain. I’ve got 7 seeds and will start with making fem seeds once I have favorite moms from the pack. I haven’t chosen a male but am looking forward to it.

[GYOweed]

You did a good job stress testing for hermie traits.