I mean technically they’re all 1:1 crosses. Whether you use 1000 plants or 2. One seed = one plant from two parents. It’s just how many of what plants do you want to look at at a time. If you find an exceptional plant in the offspring from those, it came from a single pairing. You go 10 gens down? still 10x single 1:1 matings to get there, irregardless of however many males or females used. Every single bean comes from a 1:1 mating. So in that case, a line selectively bred 10 times would be not any more bottlenecked than a line that was randomly open pollinated 10 times… The choice is how many you wanna look at or work with at a time. Do I wanna look at 1 bean each from 500 pairs, or look at 1000 beans from a single pair.
If you get however many generations down and then notice a problem… that’s why you should have seeds of those previous generations and/or parents from those generations saved to go back to and find another pairing to fix whatever issue it is.
This happened with corn in the 70s and they had to get old seed stock and redo the crosses to get a stable line without the susceptibility to that fungus. Now the main corn cultivar is an F1 crossing of two separate ibl’s.
Bananas are clone only. We’re on like the 4th banana cultivar due to losing others from blight and diseases. But we have old seed stock and can recreate, find a new cut everyone likes and do it again.
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OK then 
where does hybrid vigor come from?
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Hybrid vigor comes from combining two separate inbred lines together. Like the F1 corn producing longer ears with more uniform kernels than either parent line. They also do it uniformly, with greater speed and yield, than either parent.
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@ Mithridate - Love your setup! I definitely hear you on the efficiency level. That’s why I went vertical with my setup too. I haven’t dared to do vertical in the 5x3 flower tent because it works so darn good the way it is! Plus, I spent almost $1000 on the light setup for it. Would be inefficient to not run it for a few years. I run 4 60w LED shop lights in my veg tent, 2 per level. Seems to grow them well so I’m content! Not sure what juice those T5s run but I do love me LEDs.
@HolyAngel - Your post directly after Mithridate’s elaborates on my question about 1:1 breeding.
Is hybrid vigor better than regular Landrace vigor? Furthermore, what about 2 different landraces bred together? Wouldn’t that be the most ‘ideal’?
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While technically true, if one was to mix pollen from 500 males and pollinate each of 500 female, wouldn’t the genepools be 500:1…
500 donors to each carrier…
Let’s bring this to the extreme… a white widow selfed to the 10th generation would be as healthy and vigorous as a 10 times open pollinated line?
I highly doubt that. If you inbred deep enough you get the Whitakers family. Or better yet, the English royals, so inbred they had to outcross to restore health.
So inbred they had to outcross to restore health.
100%
Maybe I misunderstood something, but there’s no way one could inbreed something Gotha deep and not get ugly lol
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Thanks
And that one liner wasn’t meant to be cocky, and you certainly don’t seem to have taken it that way…
In fact it was a bit rhetorical.
Fun fact about hybrid vigor: we don’t know how far we can take this phenomenon. Crossing 2 pairs of invigorated hybrids will also result in hybrid vigor.
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Oh man, vertical! I used to run some 5kw rdwc vertical trees rooms for shits and giggles. I absolutely loved it, everything was monstrous! The buds, the roots… hah
They pull 54w per tube. So uh yeah I was running 756w in a 2x4 
I looked at leds, but figured the t5s I have are barely a couple years old, and I’m rocking new tubes…
That, and I’m a cheap bastard… no way I’m buying a $2-3-4000 light. I’ll get a 20$ mag ballast and vertizontal hood and still perform 
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Nice setup @Mithridate, cramming that tent to the max.
Do you run 12/12 from seed, or how many days until you flip?
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General rule of thumb is 3weeks of veg and flip. Basically I transplant to 5" pots after 2 weeks and once they enter fast growth again they get flipped.
“Fast” 
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Curious how you can select plants for breeding from a setup like that 
Are you keeping clones of every plant, or do you reveg everything? Or just keep the seeds from the females you like?
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Good question.
It’s a balancing act for sure.
I try to encourage branching early on without topping and get a cut from a lower branch from those that cooperate. Most often I take clips 1-2 weeks into flower once stretch started. The stubborn ones, well, they’ll get revegged… by the time I test smoked the lot, many reveg don’t make the cut, they get trashed, and I focus on the few I liked better.
On rare occasions I find a plant that refuses to branch early on and shows some unique traits through flower. That plant might get pulled from the flower tent and forced to reveg before she even finishes. Crazy, I know…
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Makes sense with the space to do what you can, seems logical to me.
I’m thinking of trying something similar in my space, but wasn’t sure how to keep the keepers
How do you keep so many clones?
Thanks for going through my questions!
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Realistically, all that’s required is 2 trays and little light.
I take smaller clones, not really by choice haha and pack them at up to 32 per tray using baby party cups. Low light levels such as screw in leds will keep growth under control. They’ll stay in there until I smoke tested everything.
If some grow too fast even under these poor conditions, I take a new cut from the first one.
Now, where do I put these…anywhere! Everywhere! a moving box on top of the tent works… a cabinet… wardrobe…
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Let’s say we have found our gem and it’s smoking how we like and growing as we want it to. What’s next?
Is it possible to create a seed form of the find if so, what is the best way? Inbreed? Bx? Or self? …or will I have to start back over again assuming most of the seeds will be duds besides the few lucky finds. ?
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this dude is a gem,(handshake) thnx mithri
we all had some preconceived notions and biased opinions coming in but we got together and got some proper info on paper. I was wrong and right…others were wrong and right. Just keep a cool head and talk it out and you get this. Happy to support such a website.
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Wow this thread is filled with bro science! All the people whos saying, wow im learning so much. Take it with a grain of salt. The best thing ive read in this thread so far is: “Dont listen to MJ breeders about plant breeding.”. Breeding can be done in many way and there are no right ways in a sense. Different techniques give you different results. This is the problem with threads like this. People act as experts when they have very limited experience. Ive done breeding for about 10 years with botanical background from university and I know i dont know a shit. But at the same time i know that there is alot of horse crap in this thread.
The height of inbreeding, a female with exact copies of X. Self pollinated male will give you females like this.
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Well, the discussion should be what you are trying to achieve. You can take a look on how other type of breeders breed adn what issues they get in the long run. Horse breeders only use line breeding, dog breeders use selective elite breeding, berry breeders use selfing and cloning. It all depends of what you are after. As someone already said, its tools and there is not something thats over all better then anything else.
For example using open pollination will not refine or make anything better, but it will slowly make your crop inferior to the F1. You cant preserve the F1 Vigor but you can preserve the traits of a cultivar. Everytime you select you trash some genetics and you reinforce some and the vigor will get lost. So IF you want vigorous plant, go for producing as many F1 seeds you can in the shortest time frame. If you want to preserve a line, save lots of clones and use them as mothers. If you want to go through alot of seeds to find elites, use poly hybrids that will give you a wide array of different plants. If you want traits from XX but with some improvements use 4x line breeding. But what i want to say is that you can never preserve something in seed form. Everytime something produces seeds or offspring. That genome will get mutations. Not a whole lot of them, but enough to change the coarse over time.
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I was petrified to post in here…i know i dont know enough to comment on certain things, but how tf am i gonna get my head fixed if i dont participate…
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Questions are the best tool to learn. So i applaud your courage to ask questions 
Keep EM coming!
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