I can show you an F1 line that has the same ratio as this mythical haze pheno. Bubbashine leaners in the ssdd have around a 5% show rate. bodhi called it too. I’ve searched through 100+ beans there and still searching now and I have no problem with that. But no one worked that line nor reproduced it for ~30 years. I’ll get around to searching through toms beans the same way eventually but man wouldn’t it be nice if someone did that already?
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I love the arguments! I think the best knowledge and brainstorming comes out of them PS thanks fellas
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yeah, at cannabis it seems like that. I have no patent on the truth. I have such experience with inbred lines. I see that using minimum parents lead to that… if you want to preserve special traits, you have to preserve all traits… then you can work with it, outcrossing, making hybrids is not some western thing, it is normal practice in India for ages for example.
you have to make difference between phenotype and genepool. phenotype doesnt contain all possible genes…
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let talk about tropical cultivars man. but you are right, F1 can be done wrongly too. thats where the selection is very important imo. but at inbred line genetics behaves differently. I wish it works like that I choose 5% pheno cross it with toms haze males and voila it is done and it will 15% for example. but unfortunately not. all you can do with inbred line is to preserve it correctly, and you cant do that if you select some genes out… special ones need those average ones to work thogether in system.
in good F1 you dont get rid of average ones, but some unwanted traits can be hidden, will appear in F2.
anybody who grew good F1s and made F2s, see the difference.
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Right. I understand that. But wouldn’t using, say, the five percent of stellar females for one side of the pollination result in better odds of finding something good in the subsequent generation of seeds? Even if you used a bunch of random males? Or vice versa, i.e. using a few selected males on a bunch of random females?
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I have separated line of Toms haze, like mango line, rootbeer line or citric metallic line. so I think I know what I am talking about, and why I try to make hybrids.
everybody who follows me know that some of my attepmts for making F1 that would be very close to excellent haze failed and were discarded, so I am sure not the one who would say any F1 hybrid is excellent. far from it.
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See I get rid of all the average ones. I cull everything, religiously, for reasons. I want to isolate. I want to bottleneck. That is 
% the entire reason I make beans. to isolate and improve. Not to have a hodgepodge of shit. Like breeds like. If I want to keep a line I like, If I lose my keeper(s) for instance, I don’t want to have to search through 100+ beans to find another keeper. If I can’t do that then I work the line to better the odds so it’s less work for me later.
Can % fail at that, for sure. But the efforts are known and knowledge gained, priceless.
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you need the whole genepool, Imagine it as system, took any part out of it and it will works differently imo… talking about preservation of heavy inbred line… if you think you know some inbred line, where every second pheno is lifetime keeper, tell me about it please!
but till now I see that inbred lines work like that. for me the most important is how it works, when inbred and when outcrossed, and sure by fails we all learn.
just look at nevilles haze, it is inbred, it is backcrossed, but still kind of outcross, not like original NLhaze, but still not so inbred like toms haze. you find keeper much easier in it, I am talking about original release, which doenst exist anymore, only cuts of it of course, but are these NH cuts which were preciously selected, I have no doubt about it, good as 5% pheno of original haze, I think that no, based on my experience. there are more above average plants yes. do you see how it works?
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when you have that line you are talking about, let me know for sure hahahahahaha
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but it is not preservation.
presrvation is very important part of breeding. when it is not done properly, consequences are clear. we see it today.
punto rojo of yesteryear, paraguyan of yesteryear, are lost, were not preserved. yes, you can find punto rojo pheno in nevilles haze, but it is not it, it is changed… so it is not really preserved, not the same as punto rojo of yestyear. it was bottle necked…
what is great on toms haze, that 70s thaistick was preserved, that is great effort imo. priceless.
or hawaiians of yesteryear, today to find trippy hawaiian like they describe it in 70s, is almost impossible. where did it go? was outcrossed and by using minimum plants, those favorite ones, it was bottlenecked. and then only thing you can do is that you outcross it again and hope for trippy hawaiian pheno to appear. but still it will be pheno of outcross and not pheno of well preserved hawaiian… and that is difference.
but like said that in case toms haze I am opened to idea to preserve it by different thai line, but as Tom said, it had to be line of the same quality. I have hmong thai line and GN thai stick line. Kangativa found one trippy pheno of GN thai stick in 20 females. was he lucky? or that curve is like that. who knows as nobody else found trippy pheno there. now if I would cross trippy pheno of GN thai stick with trippy pheno of toms haze, but it is question how much trippy it is compared to toms haze, and people say this is trippy and this is trippy. like runtz is trippy, I smoke it and laugh what somebody can think is trippy… and if it would be same level, this GN thai stick, it would be bomb first generation with much better curve that toms haze. but at F2s you can await curve get down.
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I think we all have a similar point of view but with different personal experiences.
The Haze line itself it’s a fucking mess so sometimes each one has a different expectations of a keeper… A glass breaker, groundbreaking or so.
For instance I was always a huge fan of foul smelled flowers. In all Evening Eve trials there was always a dark one with a noxious rotten putrefying mango smell whereas most tokers that tried were more found of the metallic sharp our fruity ones.
Dunno why?
Nostalgic feelings, most of the time we tend to appreciate something that reminds us good trips from the past
Just my five cents
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thats what im saying. dont let a man get you all strung up just because his personality is abrasive thats what its intended to do, weed out those who get easily offended.
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well I am not fan of nobody. I am not fan of Tom and I dont lick his ass… I have never contacted him, he contacted me.
but if I look at his work, just plants, no words. then I see deep chunk inbred line great breeding tool, same for X18 or pine tar kush - ask Tony Green or CSI Humboldt who work with that.
and his haze line, man it is amazing. even those only slightly above average ones are great and fun to smoke. long lasting, top euphoria. of course once you try that acid pheno, your brain goes that direction, necessarily and all that other weed, not only pheno of toms haze, but all that other weed seems to you like nice, but not up there with it at all… ahahhaaha
like that old school haze from southern Holland. I will not lie it is top cut. yeilds great, loud livery incense smell, reasonable flowering time,strong euphoric smoke, yeah pretty good, but in effect department it is not even close to psychoactive experience you can get from toms haze. my two cents.
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And I must say that out of all the threads this is by far the most interesting and educational! Hands down, by far, the knowledge dropped here is outstanding and I today am a better breeder because of it and for that I am truly grateful my hat is off to y’all and yes I am talking about @MAHAKALA and @TomHill but also all of y’all that has posted in this thread especially the arguments due to the wealth of knowledge that comes from them and I’m not kissing ass just saying thanks
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skunkman necessarily had to make selection.
sometimes he says he tried to preserve all of it…
sometimes he says he prefered green colombian with hint of thai, that sounds like selection…
maybe both is the truth.
when he say that F1s of Original Haze were uniformed, and that in F2s it was not uniform and split into different lines. to me it implicates that slection with F2s was done, maybe minimal selection, but some selection was done…
also if you open pollinate, and quicker males will release pollen earlier than long flowering ones, then you get shorter flowering progeny, am I right? longer ones are selected out.
but I still find 17 weeker pheno of toms haze. Tom prefers 14 weekers. I was not lucky with 14 weekers. but I am happy with my 17 weeker 
hahahaha
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this is my chocolate funk, chocolate thai stick. better curve than toms haze, but it is different, changed in its character. not so speedy energetic for example… it is grown in South Asia by western dude… looks like thai to me, but not landrace at all, F1 hybrid for sure
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I think Bob hemphill of Cricket and Cicadas mentions “20 weekers” still in the OP he did with posi/Tom stock
https://www.youtube.com/live/gSLpULf2QOo?feature=share
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some say that it is marketing from my side, when I prefer thaihaze over colombian dom haze and all that talk. yeah marketing, I even dont have packaging LOL
I see that somebody believes that just by simple selection of favorite phenotypes the line can get better. like people think that if you cross elite with elite you will get mega elite, but I still dont see that for example sour diesel x triangle kush would be better thatn sour diesel itself or TK itself…
maybe I should use my marketing and find out how many people think that and claim line like that. sell tons of seeds and then disappear in Caribbean hahaha
wish I know how to make such marketing aahahhaha, but it is more thing of sensi seeds or mr. nice seeds, they are much better in marketing than me LOL as I have zero marketing LOL
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If you think I’m “offended” by Tom Hill’s “abrasiveness,” you’ve clearly never read a single post from me. I’m a dick. Everybody knows I’m a dick, but it’s all in good fun.
Tom Hill isn’t “fun.” He’s just a moron.
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