Are we doing a bad job at preserving and documenting genetic material?

Breeder's Lab
#1

Hello all,

After accidentally hijacking a thread of a OG supporter with this topic, I wanted to give it its own thread.

By reading a bit about plant breeding and plant genetics that is not specific oriented to cannabis, I noticed that for other plants, the provenance, history and important info about specific cultivars is much more available, and they have guidelines and passports for all common plant types, here is a “MULTI-CROP PASSPORT DESCRIPTOR” for grapes:
http://www.eu-vitis.de/docs/descriptors/mcpd/MCPD-for-Grapevine-10Feb12.pdf

For those that don’t want to open this link I have copied some of the info that is required in the plant passport:

    1. Accession name (ACCENAME) Example: Rheinische Vorgebirgstrauben;Emma;Avlon
    1. Acquisition date (ACQDATE)
    1. Country of origin (ORIGCTY)
    1. Location of collecting site (COLLSITE) Example: 7 km south of Curitiba in the state of Parana
    1. Latitude of collecting site (LATITUDE) Example: 011530N
    1. Longitude of collecting site (LONGITUDE) Example: 076----W
    1. Elevation of collecting site (ELEVATION)
    1. Collecting date of sample (COLLDATE)
    1. Breeding institute code (BREDCODE)
    1. Biological status of accession (SAMPSTAT)
      Wild
      Natural
      Semi-natural/wild
      Weedy
      Traditional cultivar/landrace
      Breeding/research material
      Breeder’s line
      Synthetic population
      Hybrid
      Founder stock/base population
      Inbred line (parent of hybrid cultivar)
      Segregating population
      Mutant/genetic stock
      Advanced/improved cultivar
  1. Ancestral data (ANCEST) Information about either pedigree or other description of ancestral information (i.e. parent variety in case of mutant or selection). Example: mutation found in Hanna Example: selection from Irene

And there are MUCH more, but I personally found these the most relevant.

How nice would it be to have this level of information about our favourite strains?

Something to think about.

Cheers,
eS

16 Likes
#2

Yes.

This is a longterm effect of the war on cannabis.

12 Likes
#3

Only criminals could grow weed, because if you grew weed you were a criminal. Pretty high risk factor for purely academic motivations. Deterred a lot of people. Not all of them but a lot.

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#4

Fair point, but at this moment in time, while still not perfect, things are looking positive in my eyes in terms of legalization and regulation; there is also a lot of paid and legal research being done on both cannabis ( or often “hemp”) and its genetics.

While I am not advocating for more regulation and laws, it would be nice if the professional breeders and seed collectors would take a slightly more academic approach, for the sake of the plants genetic diversity.

For example a question that has been bothering me for a long time: what makes Amnesia special and such a massive commercial success (here in NL)?

If we had the same info on Amnesia as we have on Finola for example, the data would be out there for anyone interested in preserving this profile, or doing something new with it.

Now we have forums full of people (me including) asking and wondering about lineage, history, specific cuts, chemotypical profiles with only anecdotal evidence spread thinly throughout the avalanche of posts.

Cheers,
eS

3 Likes
#5

Another point id like to make is stuff like Seedfinder, an amazing platform and simply the best we have currently, however, the amount of [probably] you find when you look up a certain cross or cultivar, is quite shocking and leads to even more questions, especially about the ones where only the people with first hand experience actually know; the rest is just guessing based on phenotypic traits.

3 Likes
#6

seedfinder is a far cry from a good source for genetic information.
Anyone can edit it and the info for a lot of strains changes over time depending on who is doing the editting on that site. Add to that all the times that “most likely” appears in thier genetic family trees is pretty laughable.
There is no genetic bank of information for growers access for all the cannabis out there and prohibition is absolutely 100% the reason for that. There are however many individuals and business enterprises that are out there scouring the globe for unique local and landrace cultivars and documenting things very well. They aren’t mainstream on forums or websites but these people are out there doing the legwork. As legalization comes to more and more countries and cannabis joins the mainstream horticulture community, we will see plants with the heavy documentation but my guess is that will be used to trademark and patent in the nearer future. Phylos Galaxy was a hope for cannabis enthusiasts but it too is full of junk and untrustable data and entries with no proof of genetics , just called say OG Kush or Sour Diesel ect ect.
In order to compile the kind of data you are talking about… hundreds of Botanists who are also pot growers , need to get together and form an entity with that sole mission and then scour the globe for unique and landrace plants and perform wide spectrum DNA analysis beyond the limitted scope that Phylos performed for thier “galaxy”.
my 2 cents anyways.

14 Likes
#7

It’s just weed. Grow it, if you like it, grow it more. Over time one will get their favorites down.

16 Likes
#8

I like it, but it seems more for outdoor and not “drug-type” aka just hemp. I’d suggest tracking a lot more attributes, especially with the highly selected lines these days being so unique.

Anything from scents and flavor profile to color profile in the bud, leaf, stem, etc. and when each of those respective things presents/changes, and definitely trichome attributes (stalk height + shape, head size + shape, aging, etc) and cannabinoid profile

Definitely agree a lot of history is being lost and a lot of potential conclusions that could be drawn from the data are being lost too

3 Likes
#9

I support the idea for sure
At least if we can make a standard for OGers, the forum will be even better

Just we shouldn’t be frustrated when we cannot fill in some infos. As others mentioned above, it was tough to keep the data and genetic due to legal issue.
It was really hard tbh…

And little adjustment on the category so we ogers can fill it nicely

Anyway, like the idea​:+1::+1:

4 Likes
#10

I was used in another life to produce an exhaustive PDF of each line. Group shots, pheno to hunt, nutes schedules on major brands, making-of …

Finally it was only usefull to show this during the demos with buds on the table … only in B2B.

Totally useless for stoners. They still never grow the strain like it should be, ignore all advises lol, and still asking very basic questions and advises largely covered by the document they have.

It’s also why i consider "testers’ just as a tool of exposition. I’m not drawning at all the concept, it’s my touch of pragmatism after have feeded my share of fem addicts.

The problem i think, is that traceability is not entertaining for everybody.

It still in the whole EU’s streets buddy. 20 years of reign holly fuck. Best cup won ever for a breeder, consecration lol

You know it’s the mind-fucking high and its potency, but yes fondamentally we don’t really know why so much time.

Now is understanding stoner’s waves of love something pragmatic, idk ^^

lt’s where i disagree with you on a detail. I’m all for a true referencement of genotypes and cuts, a kind of seedfinder never cashed by seed’s industry. But piloted by a crew involved to actually reference something lol Even if it’s just for a single exhaustive round.

It keep open a bunch of options for cash-flow : led, nutes, tents, tools , hydro systems … bunch of ads and sponsors possible in staying neutral.

Now sincerely SF is more a kind of wiki where everyone can write his truth that truly a tool of influence of Royal Queen Seeds. It’s not a seedbank at the base, but a publisher. It’s like if High Times owned it in a way, what matter is the high exposure, the traffic and the use being an habit. They get far more cash with datas of consultations than wasting any time to gaslight something ^^

It’s where a simple but true phenotype’s bank take the true lead over a simple register of lines imho.

In term of factual utility for the scene, but also in term of traceability. Rewarded by the free seeds of the seed’s labels you’re refusing any ads, for each complete entry ^^

Just throwing, but it’s important i think to don’t be binary and to perceive the blur line between a sane emulation and a shit show of outdated marketing 2.0 …

I don’t think. Collecting phenos in a database (with why not chromatos and sequences attached as bonus) can eventually be entertaining. Giving an extra reason to grow for a bunch of stoners not interrested to chunk around, also. I share the whole feeling but i’m less drastic on conclusions.

After all a place like OG is at a light year from a seedfinder, seeds are actually flowing here with growlogs. It’s just a question of structure, not everybody like to lurk growlogs as a morning newspapers with a bluntxpresso lol

Sound dope as it sound quite expensive considering the new norms of security this last half quarter of century ^^

6 Likes
#11

Thank you for your in depth and really insightful info, I appreciate it!

Cheers,
eS

2 Likes
#12

My personal theory is a 1%+ terpinolene content with only minimal other terps, which is both quite unique and should partially explain the scent and flavour of Amnesia… I saw this data in a test result from a coffeeshop that had its weed tested.

But yeah, we dont know really :smiley:

1 Like
#13

Over though for my tastes.

Is it good shit man, That’s good enough for me.

However, carry on and just say
Toker try this “good Shit”
I will grow it .

3 Likes
#14

All I can say is someone fucked up the weed and thats from one thing too many hands in the cookie jar !!! I like your points but I think something like a Wikipedia anyone can add but never take away once it s written it should have to be verified with at least 2 other sources alot of cordinsation

4 Likes
#15

Heheh, my friend always used to say to me: “theres two types of weed, good weed and bad weed”.

But finding your favourite strain is not the goal of doing all this documentation; its mainly for other breeders and researchers; or perhaps even medical users looking for a specific profile in a way that easily searchable with a database.

There is most likely a whole range of chemotypes and interesting traits that have existed, but are now undocumented, and lost to the void.

It’s only quite recently that we learned that some of the Thai landraces sometimes carry alot of THC-V, which now is a new avenue of research, as an example.

Cheers,
eS :tropical_drink:

4 Likes
#16

Don’t worry if there’s money involved somewhere someone is already making a Bible of pot !!! Great topic !!! I think more people should add think on this and then smoke more pot with a different name !!

1 Like
#17

While certainly not an impossible undertaking it would prove difficult with cannabis, imo the epigenetic variation depending on local geological terroir is alot to account for. I believe genetic field sequencing would be a good approach along with visual documentation and several other notes specifically lat /longitude, elevation, even soil samples, these plants change so much depending on where you grow them and conditions its downright impressive.

1 Like
#18

Very true, and these days with “landraces” we also have to deal with unintended heterozygosity due to unintended hydridization. Some

This is something that keeps amazing me with weed, and is perhaps the reason why I am so interested in preserving the genetics in the first place. Cannabis can do some really cool and whacky stuff, purple buds etc. But whats even more amazing to me is stuff like the ABC and Freakshow are genetic and can be stabilized, I am convinced there is more cool stuff out there.

Cheers,
eS

3 Likes
#19

I think there has to be a way to lock down the original beans it self before it’s crossed into extinction !

#20

You summed up BEAUTIFULLY the entire genetic documentation arena!! When “other motives” are behind the research, the purity envisioned in it’s conception falls apart. SS/BW…mister :honeybee: :100: :pray: :smiling_face_with_three_hearts:

2 Likes