k thanks my question is pointless without the Topic. I’m not going back over it thanks all.
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draw the punnett square, or look up mendelian genetics
Do you mean this one?
IF i am just after recessive genes that will show up f2s and f3s is it important to grow out dozens of f1s for selection?
IS popping 100 gonna give me something that popping 5 wont ?
100 plants will give you more selection, exponentially. a 1-to-1 pairing of any f1s where one parent was a mutant should mean that all of the f1s will carry the mutant genome. it’s just a matter of taking your favorite f1s to f2, for traits OTHER than the leaf type. in f1 is where you select for the traits you want to see in the line. to give an example i will use an ultra short flowering strain (~40 days flowering) vs a long flower which goes for 120+ days. let’s say the long flower is a mom and the fast one was the father. in the f1 generation you could choose 2 faster flowering individuals, or 2 longer flowering individuals. the resulting f2 generation will be night-and-day different from each other. you may find phenotypes within both sets of f2s which look like each other, but they will have entirely different genetic composition. it’s quite fascinating just how vast the potential pool is, the problem is most of us can’t germinate 10,000 seeds to pheno hunt.
the thing with freaks compared to the other mutants is that the freakshow lines seem to be xx-linked. so if you take any f1 bred by a freak male, you have no way of knowing if the f1 progeny will carry the freak genome. it’s a luck of the draw to use f1s from freakshow males. if you use a female freak by an auto male, the f1 generation should be 100% carriers since the trait is xx-linked. there’s an entire thread discussing this phenomena here on overgrow. i have heard people find the mutation through males but expect a ‘hit rate’ of 5% [1 in 20] in the f2 generation instead of 25% [1 in 4].
if you have any questions i’m sure i can explain this more thoroughly 1-on-1.
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after rereading my last post i’m not sure i conveyed my thoughts correctly. this post will be an attempt to do such.
this is the cross – Siberian landrace x Colombian long-flower. the siberian is auto, and the colombian is photo. in the f1 generation you should experience a bell curve of different phenotypes. some will be semi-auto and some will be regular photos. you’ll find faster flowering specimen like on the left, and longer flowering specimen on the right. the ones which will breed better for you are the ones which display the semi-auto traits within the flowering duration you seek to breed for. so if you want a shorter flowering strain, you want to select two phenos which seem semi-auto and also flower quickly. if you take a semi-auto short flower and breed it with a semi-auto long flower your f2 generation should ‘theoretically’ contain the maximum amount of variation because you’ve selected phenotypes which didn’t even blend at f1. if you want more uniform looking f2s, take a semi-auto pair from the 70day flower range. if you want to breed autos out, select the most photo dominant phenos.
this is just 1 pairing between two different parental lines. if you open pollinate the same rules apply, you just have a much much much much larger selection of potential chromosomal differences between siblings.
i hope this makes a little bit more sense.
edit this is nearly impossible to go through when breeding with poly-hybrids. the tables are entirely different because the parental lines aren’t ibl they’re random mashes of dominant traits. unfortunately most plants today aren’t ibl so this isn’t super helpful except for conceptualizing the idea.
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look up breeding selection methods. a F2 and F3 population will have less geneotypic variation than that F1, so you will only see an elimination of traits from continuing to breed from already selected and bred stock. for this purpose, unless looking at the SNP sequences, focusing on that F1 population is the most important if you are looking for recessive trait or gene expression
Practically you’re right, in the context. For your goal it’s strategic to directly play with the true further segregations, with a load of your own fresh seeds. Just because it’s far more predictable and easy to map that with the heterosis blurring the game. A lot less expensive too.
Yes, almost the full representative spectrum of the line and easy made % to gauge the results of your choices.
It’s not a magic way either, if the genetic is not reliable you will just have more “non reliable” specimens to screen … not the goal. You want more to juggle with the best compromises adapted to the grade you’re aiming. It’s a concern fueled by relativity.
It’s a genetic funnel starting in F1 buddy, it can’t be exponential.
As fuck yes, it permit to add additional constraints. Now juggling with terps, potency and mutation at a time is quite a dance too. Let’s be not too dreamy on how to get started to reach fast a first success that learn a new depth on the materials, as well.
A good method to get started without being overwhelmed by cascading compromises is simply to dedicate parallel lines to their wanted unique quality. Then juggling with IBL x IBL to get closer, simpler. One time the traits requested are mastered, a fusion is more easy to drive when you know your puppies and how they react.
The “auto” process can be kept for the end too, when the weed is “ready”. It’s all about the goals.
Now i think that if it’s just to have fun and generate a funky mutant, the simplicity must prevail to get used and store datas. In a first move.
It’s more about the allele’s combo, the initial genetic material stay the main blueprint. “You can’t ask to a cow to fly”, even with artificial mutations. You need a fertile genotype that is initially compliant with your goal, and that stay compliant (more hard ^^).
Not 10K seeds in the pics, but both batches are different and were running at the same time. From the same line. And i don’t show those flowering aside ^^
I dislike these “prohibitionists laws” based on misunderstanding management of spaces. Everybody can germinate a shit ton in a season and dial the seedlings, without a hangar. You just have to adopt a perpetual germination until you find your horses, it go very fast this way and you obtain levels of screening that is no longer possible to share today. “Because it’s impossible”.
10K seeds is what, 1/5th of a congelation ziplock of seeds. We are not talking about barrels.
Dope iteration of your first explanation, still too much “impossibles” and absolute statements but wrapped with this care it change a lot the perspective.
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Honestly, Once I get it to the point where they are auto flowering, I look forward to the varations. I love the idea of planting 10 and getting 10 slightly differnet plants. But aside from getting auto flowers with some form of mutation, I am really not aiming for anything in pictular right now. I learn by doing, same with the auto crossing im going to be doing with the Auto flower pollen I have on hand, its more about “seeing what I get” than hunting for a certian set of traits, Once I have done bunches and bunches of crosses, they I will likely fine tune and start hunting for traits. But Im still learning and this is the best way for me to learn, Im Gen X after all gotta FAFO.
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for clarification, the funnel starts at the parents. i was merely stating that if you use only 2 parents you have the variation from those 2. if you use 100 parents to go into f2 you have exponentially more possibilities, no? it’s like a spiderweb of infinite possibilities as my eyes see them.
this is really enlightening to see, so thank you for showing me it’s not impossible if the goals are set to do so. for me it does pose a question. don’t you think there’s some sort of epigenetic effect of germinating so many plants and forcing them to grow in confined spaces like that? i prefer to see maximal expression from my plants (basically what they would do in nature) that way i can see which traits i want to select for. germinating so many seeds in a hasty manner just to check for ‘xyz traits’ seems like an odd concept to me. maybe i’m just not understanding the big picture here.
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If you think about it, it’s pretty close to how it would happen “in nature” actually.
A plant grows, makes seeds and dies. The next year, the thousand seeds that dropped onto the soil around their mother pop up where they landed, Granted some others are given the chance to travel though pigeon guts 
That’s also how farmers are still doing in some places or for some crops: throw handfuls of seeds on a field, and remove the weaker as they grow to get a good coverage and density.
That way of popping seeds at that density helps in the early selection process: the most vigorous will catch all the light. That’s what would happen “in nature”.
This is just the seedling stage, from there you can selectively repot the one you like.
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Unfortunately it’s more complicated ^^ It’s also a battle losted by advance for me, in term of shares and transmission. I’ve started like this, by multiple 10sqm guerrilla crops at good distance directly sown on site and dialing batch of seeds “per site” that represent individual inbred lines.
The main error come from the comparison between an outdoor and an indoor round.
Indoor is an advanced hospital where almost everybody can survive, even the seedlings without any vigor and defense.
Outdoor it’s the total war, the level of screening of mother nature is insane and impossible to reproduce as pressure. You have an all-in-one : direct exposition to everything we dodge inside (pest, disease, weather), a round that is lasting an entire season that is maximizing this exposition, and the parameters that funkyfunk rightly described. The pressure is really insane, beyond what some are used to dream about usually for their analogies.
That, only for the epigenetics factors, and without starting to talk about the strong prinfoot of the terroir on the weed (specially for the psychoactive part of the chemotype).
Now technically you’re not entirely wrong on the process. Different grains are hitting the females. I will just share with you two stupid leverages that help a bit to better manage an open pollination indoor :
Factor #1 - the timing of production of gametes : it’s not streamlined until your line is stabilized (and even in this case, factor #2 play a lot). Females have to be ready to receive in term of maturity : mostly ovula-ready + pistils-ready. You can throw a kilogrammer of pollen on the female, if she’s not ready … you will get only nodal seeds eventually (because pre-flowers close to hormonal highways are always more mature) ^^
In a plant with with lets say 8 nodes from the ground, it’s only 32 seeds on a potential of a few thousands to a hundreds. What is important to remember with this example, is that it can apply to an OP. Imagine a fast male not supposed to survive outdoor, that throw during two weeks too much early. He will maybe get the nodes, until a male with high grade and resilient grains take the lead for the vast majority of the seeds.
I think that you don’t need advanced explanations to understand that a rightly managed OP imply a strict selection in term of male’s synchronicity. To accomplish the real goal (maxed diversity, trough a funnel we are doomed to manage as breeders anyway).
Factor #2 - Just the floral quality in term of reproduction, both side. Ovula/Pistils and Pollen. It include resistance to fungis, the shape dried, how much it’s raining during the window (or the RH level indoor). It’s a lot less “industrial” that it appear.
Add mutants with generally very efficient pollens or the strict reverse (almost sterile or sterile) … it’s more complicated that it look.
You have also some specimens you don’t want to let enter in the genotype, because they are deleterious for the initial balance. The initial maths don’t count, it’s their use on further round that is the leverage. These seeds are mixed and not identified by pairing … so the chances to wipe the genotype in favor of an genetic evolution are very high. It’s a natural process, but without the mercyless hand of mother nature and its insane pressure. It change a lot the equation.
Damn, i’ve to get medically tortured soon. I come back to continue the chit chat a bit later ^^
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God, they took me for a rallye car lol I’ve the impression to be “shark” in james bond this afternoon 
So yes, what is lacking in the first wall …
I understand the perspective. Let me find an counter-weight analogy, instinct is good but the deduction is a bit too overkill. The game is hard but not at the point you’re seeing it, i think.
It’s more like this. The array still the same all the life of the line, and what is appearing “infinite” for an human spanlife is in fact a finite number of combinations. A shit tons of combinations.
Breeding (evolutive or not) is not mapping every single switch and their linked switches, but the cheat behind the method to occult the switches you can’t reach with the hand. In favor of those that are close to the alimentation, “the master switches of each line”.
Sorry, breeders aren’t spiders even if it’s looking cool lol Maybe in the community as stoners, it can work ^^
This the goal (not for germinations like i shown), at the exception that we are just little pieces of shit in regard of the power of mother nature ^^ The ecosystem in your garden is something you can’t reproduce indoor, at most “mimic” with very restricted power.
But it’s a multilayered consideration as well. This way you can screen faster than light whatever you’re hunting : seedlings hues, vigor, shape dominance/efficience, root mass … within ten seconds you directly see the superior DNAs by the mass effect. It’s stupid but it’s also a leverage affecting the way you perceive the genotype.
Not saying one second that it’s an obligation, most of commercial releases i repro by example are x10/x20/x30 max before entering really in the rabbit hole. My segregation rate is between 75% and 90%+ within the end of the veg, like less than 10 flowered specimens for 100 seeds germinated. Sometimes also i’m just lucky and get the phenos i need on a simple restricted vigor test … better to be prepared to everything and to answer methodologically to each problematic, than thinking everything will act like a railroad. It’s where egos can kill lines, under the excuse of “untouched” preservation. To make a loop. Human spirit is powerfull, we can change our perception of the reality only by the will. Better to let at the front of your lab, with your shoes ^^
It’s really a faithful thinking for me, but i’m able to respect this. The essential is that you obtain something better than the initial source, the blunts are your judges.
You need to map them with accuracy before, or it’s just rolling dices. On this one i’m forced to be pushy, it’s a more dangerous trap for your evolution than arbitrary convictions as philosophy of breeding.
I’ve my own arbitrary things, don’t worry about this at the moment it don’t limit your potential in the facts.
The seeds and the seedlings you’re seeing in the photos are two digits IBL, from a landrace directly sourced.
It’s looking odd because you look like to have a misconception about the sequence of the job to do.
Why launching even 100 seeds if you don’t know shit on the line and that nothing is mapped and verified with prototypes or dominance tests ? It’s not a concept, it’s basic maths on how many hours you have to note all specimens you have … before their shapes evolve again (each three days at juvenile stage).
I don’t think your grain of sand is the big picture, but the “marathonian” aspect of your impact on the lines.
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This is the part I can not do. I am, for lack of a nicer way to say it, Poor AF, if I plant it and it lives IT HAS to be grown out, I can not afford to cull it for any reason. Now I might not hit it with pollen if i dont like how it grew but it will be grown out and harvested for smoke. I wont even cull Males, I am slowing working toward a second tent to move males once i start doing reg autos so that i can collect the pollen from them and not waste any plants. To be 1000% honest, the main reason I am able to grow at all, is the generous people here, without this fourm I would be out of seeds and unable to buy more at the average cost of seeds today. Compund this by the fact that I really really really like autoflowers lol.
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This is me! Started 3 packs (33 seeds) and ended up with 4 plants to flower that are still in testing.
Yes and no. It depends what you’re doing with that following generation. You’d have more beans/plants to look at in the F2, but if you then choose one or a few plants from that F2, you still only have 2 parents for each of those. It’s not really any different, nor any more diverse, than just using only 2 parents at the start, if you knew they were what you were looking for. Now if you OP’d the F2 too, you’re opening it up even more for stuff to look at, but once you start picking out select plants, we’re still only talking about 4 parents used to make that F3.
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Buddies, you are so absolutists sometimes ^^ Who say it’s an obligation to cull your rejected phenos and to don’t smoke them. It’s a part of the mapping. If you don’t know the cost of “bad phenos for your goals”, how to take the decision to cull them earlier (to launch more of your seeds) ?
These phenos are all rejected, but the blunts were good ^^ I just smoked them with a pen and an a4 paper in hands. You never have enough datas to improve your accuracy.
But obviously we should take care to say more often that most of the time we aren’t playing with unknown stuff ^^
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Do you perhaps still have some seeds from ABC Auto?
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I do, I have not grown or bred with them just yet, I am working on crosses with g13 labs Froyo feminized pollen at the moment.
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