Cannabis crosses are not F1s, so says science!

Breeder's Lab
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#139

A poly hybrid… basically the same as MOST of the ‘elite’ cuts that have become popular… You have a jumble of genes that with large amounts of segregation down the line will express a large variation in phenotypes… so many of these elite cuts are the result of someone getting lucky and fluking a good phenotype… Well MOST people here can do that right?

What you could do in this situation is to self the fem while keeping a cut so as it can be a recurrent parent, then take the seed from the fem, grow them out, reverse the fem again while keeping a cut and cross it over the progeny that are most similar to the mother… do this as many times as you need to so as to get what you want… and then you could introduce a male as an outcross… and then fold that into the line by repeatedly back-crossing the males from this over the recurrent female… I practice you would probably do this by developing separate lines once you have a semi stable female and then combining the two lines once you have the traits from the male you want… which if you are looking to reproduce the original would be not many so you can basically breed out the male lines traits except now you have regular seeds to work with… Time consuming and probably why most commercial seed breeders don’t seem to do it an instead just self so called ‘elite cuts’.

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#140

Thank you. So f1 is not the first seed of a random cross.
Im creating a polyhybrid then . Now selecting through and breeding that “brother n sister” as they say would make it ? I know im a pita thats more than i need to know right now. Again thanks.

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#141

Ok so if the chart is right the second cross would make h2 hybrid and so on.

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#142

Technically not if one of either of the parents don’t breed true for their traits would be my understanding. Typically in agro-science an F1 refers to the offspring of two lines that have been stabilized… this is important because two in-bred lines as parents will result in an F1 generation that displays an even and predictable combination of traits from both parents, a random matting of one or two polyhybrids on the other hand will lead to VAST numbers of pheno variation that might take an impractical amount of time and effort to stabilize… If you then cross those F1 generations to make an F2, then predictability goes out the window and it’s a case then of tediously selecting and inbreeding till you end up with a line that will breed true…
So yeah if you think about the way landrace strains have become that way, it’s simply because a population has become isolated and has only able to inbreed, over many many generations this results in a ‘flattening’ of the genetic variability and will produce more or less consistent phenotype that reflect the genotype. Unfortunately not many of us can have hundreds or thousands of plants self breeding for dozens of generations until they are more or less completely stable!

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#143

Ok so basically each seed is most likely to display different phenos the first few inbreeds (or more).

But crossing a poly with poly wont be more unstable as in nanners stress resistance hermie. Grow problems. ?
They should all hold solid to the parents traits as far as stability on that end right?

Then i just inbreed further choosing my phenos to breed with

I guess i like multiple phenotypes if theyre all good.
If the parents chosen phenotypes were good that should help. Right?
Im hitting clones from 2 proven females with pollen from a solid male of cross i like that i cant get anymore.
So if i succeed the first step I might be busy at this a while. Its all good again thanks for your time.

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#144

Slain you have alot of the same thoughts as me about all of this and it’s nice to see people taking these things into consideration. Things are about to change alot for our dear old plant big pharma and corporate agriculture bring big money and fancy labs. All kinds of tom foolery will be unleashed. Hopefully the community can continue to work together to keep as many lines around as possible

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Introduce Yourself @OG (Part 1)
#145

In general, this is true … so if the parents of a cross differ by a large number of gene pairs the number of differences will influence the number of generations of inbreeding necessary to get consistency of the phenotypes. i.e. the larger the genetic variation, the more cycles of inbreeding it is likely to take to stabilize. It’s not unsual for field crops to be inbred to F12 or more, at which point there should be so little variability that they are an IBL in their own right.

Not necessarily, the tendency for a plant to throw nanners is probably recessive (anyone?) ,and therefore although the plant may never present as intersex in it’s original cut, the issue then becomes with repeated selfing it can be relatively easy to accidentally end up with a recessive gene becoming the dominant expression of the breeding line, and then it basically becomes a fixed attribute in the line from then on… This would be likely why you get more issues with nanners on stressed plants that a feminized would be my guess.

Yep… there is no problem as far as know in using a ‘composite’ population of multiple phenotypes in the breeding process, and I believe this is commonly done to avoid rapid inbreeding suppression in all sorts of breeding programs.
Also for the average home grower who is likes making their own seeds and just wants a fair chance that a good pheno is going to turn up, you can probably get away with selection to f4 or less depending on what you start with and maybe backcrossing only once or maybe twice. If you only do this you will still be doing a lot more ‘breeding’ than most of the commercial seed companies do.

Exactly, you will get seeds that will most likely throw all sorts of phenos, so then it’s about having a solid pheno hunt until you find what you want, and then either keeping a mother alive like all those ‘elite cuts’ or it’s chose the pheno/phenos you want and work back from there… but of course in all of this the MOST important thing is to have fun with it :stuck_out_tongue:

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#146

I’m on the same page, fwiw. Figured it out in less than a year, so not too bad. :blush: I still think private individuals & home chuck’s are welcome to make messes as long as they aren’t selling them(myself included). It’s the “bell curve” & most folks are mediocre! :smile: I looked at a certain breeder’s menu & shook my head… f1 crosses of other peoples shit, all who’ve gone separate ways because of said breeder, for years. :thinking: Many of them went on to do their own thing & still are.

Preservation work/heirlooms & IBLs are the real urgency.

:evergreen_tree:

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#147

@slain i keep cuts of everything til its proven trash or keeper i fear losing the cut not just strains. cause that next seed is not guarunteed. I only have those 2 keeper females now. Ive made the mistake of not keeping copies. Im religious about it now.
My original plan actually was to try reversing the e pupil mother but her clones just wouldnt root n she took a whole 4x4 in the process. She was a revegged keeper i fought for. So i wasnt gonna reverse her.throw a whole 4x4 out n kill her. Hell no
I Finally got cuts rooted n flipped big momma again. Cuts can be reversed too i think ( note to self future project hit e pupil with a clone of e pupil reversed hmmm
nah someone might get mad )and i got 10+ rooted clones of her now.
Sorry for the book.
Again thank you for the information and time.

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#148

Which sadly brings us back to the first post in the thread and the fact that cannabis has become so hybridized that those unpolluted landrace and IBL strains, already rare as rocking horse shit are only going to get harder and harder to find.
A lot of the gear we used to grow as kids was mostly big thai sativa type strains, we had no indicas around at all until maybe late 80’s… we had to be seed savers because there was no buying seeds and this meant we kept the same strains going year in year out… Now days you woudl hardly find anyone growing those older strains and they mostly will have been mixed with a whole lot of other genetics as well. Very few people will want to grow a 4 meter plant that takes 120 days or more to finish, these days everyone’s attention span is way too short for anything like that.
We can be sure that big pharma will be searching the globe for any and all possible genetic material they can get their grubby mitts on so hopefully things like preservation projects on OG might see some more of these rare landrace type strains getting out there again…

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#149

This is a cross to sensi seeds durbin I made and a friend tested this year.
I’m 6 foot 4 and this was only in a 30 gallon smart pot .I’m sure it would have hit 20 feet no problem in a larger container.

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#150

Much respect man, she looks like a beast! A plant solid enough to be a clothes line is not something you see every day :joy:

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#151

Hahah I use hangers to harvest and bamboo for supports. I did how ever keep a 7 foot portion of the main stalk to turn into a giant staff.

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#152

I can stand on the 3rd & 4th branches of my last plant. :grin:

Photo coming when the rain stops.

:evergreen_tree:

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#153

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'toldya. no mirrors, just smoke y’all.

:evergreen_tree:

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#154

I have never grown one that stout, damn!!!

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#155

Your username is more apt than ever!

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#156

Do you mean line breeding? Crossing to each other assuming?

#157

When I say pure I mean working towards stabile ibl genetics , there are many routes in breeding you could pick to achieve this, pedigree, backcross etc. Dont get me wrong true hybrids serve a purpose I just feel there should be more focus on locking in and isolating stabil strains for breeding purposes. A hybrid from two stabile and distinctively different parents works much better then hybrid x hybrid x elite cut x s1 x most current cup winner x the kush the aliens are bringing me.

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#158

Not a fan of Elite x Elite, huh? :joy:

(does anyone even get that reference? :sweat_smile: I’ll show myself out.)

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