That is the case as long as you are using the exact same cut when youâre mating them. If you hunt a pack of S1s and pick two of them to mate, youâre taking the S1/F2s and making F3s, but theyâre not S2s. It would have to be one selection of the S1s mated with a cutting of itself to make S2s.
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Okay got it so it only applies that exact way if using the SAME (S1) PLANT
But S1 x S1 (sibling) becomes an F3 and no longer a self, so no S2 attached to the offspring, just F3
That makes sense to me now.
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Iâve always wondered this, thanks for the explanation 
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@Cactus has been in this rabbit hole exploring lately, he might assist further if needed
Hapi joy
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I wouldnât want to date a Hollywood couple.
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F2xF2 = F3 not S2 since the plants were not crossed to themselves. Selfing means you are crossing it into itself but if you cloned the F2 and Crossed it to itself what would it be? The original F2 is different from the other F2 even though they came from selfed seed they still went through independent assortment and cross-over so the two F2âs arenât the same. Cloning one of the F2âs and reversing the one clone and letting its pollen drop on both itself and the clone could be considered selfing but thatâs still a grey area? The process of selfing just produces more homozygous genes or segregates more of the plants to more of the extremes. Thatâs why transgressive segregation works but wonât see it I bet when working and IBL since the plants should be very uniform butâŚ
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I was thinking that as well, but I know very little on the subject. I assumed because the genetics were not an exact copy that it would have to advance the line in the F and wouldnât be considered an advancement in the S
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Thank you kindly for the information. Please keep it coming haha
I am finding it difficult to find an easy to understand article or paper that explains these things.
Bought a few books on breeding, but they hardly go into selfing.
Do you agree with some that Selfs are prone to herm ?
I donât think I feel that way. The generics should be solid Female, and are only FORCED to produce male characteristics because of outside influence. But I donât feel it would carry on with their genetics in an S1
It is already in the plant to be able to change if it wanted to anyway, so I feel if it were to herm, it would show it in natural growth, with or without stress.
I believe thatâs why stress testing strains is important before deciding to use them in any crosses or selfs. If it has a tendency to herm naturally with stress, then it will most likely carry that on.
Tho, I guess in a way using STS or CS is in fact stressing the plant a bit. I just donât believe that is the main cause of a female to produce male parts, itâs more the blocking of the female hormones ? I think ha
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And so I obviously have a better chance at keeping specific phenotypes Iâm looking for if I keep Selfing a plant by Self polination, then I would if I Crossed 2 (S1) siblings together.
But by crossing (S1) siblings I would have a better chance at actually FINDING the exact phenos from the mother as there is a larger genetic mix ?
And according to the chart I think an S3/S4 is about as far as I would need to go once I found a good (S1) plant that best closely matched the mother.
But I think Selfing her could go either way tho I guess. I canât think of a way to keep exact phenotypes when dealing with one girl.
If I crossed siblings however I would at least be able to try and cross two (S1) plants that share the same Phenotypes of the mother and hope for a gene pair.
Like if the mother was red and smells like blueberries, I self her.
Grow out the (S1)s and find half are red and Blueberry, and the other are not, I could then cross the red blueberry siblings together in hopes of a match. But when dealing with only ONE (S1) plant that shows Red and blueberry, she might not keep those phenos ?
Sorry for all the questions brother. Iâm just excited to learn. Im extremely greatful to have this site as a resource for knowledge.
As specific as it is, the knowledge im looking for, I really know no other place to even find my answers.
So thank you kindly. I am very greatful.
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Itâs funny to me to see the word âselfingâ or âselfedâ in a context other than juggling. Selfs are involved in most juggling patterns where 2 or more people are involved. 
Those are passing patterns, as opposed to solo juggling. I was never a very good solo juggler. Iâve always been more interested in the social aspects of juggling, like the folks who participate and who they are. I will say this, in my more than fifty years of juggling experience, for the most part theyâre a bunch of fucking stoners. 
Several months before my stroke in 2017, Mrs. mota and I went on a five day white water rafting adventure. I was 67 and it was awesome! I think maybe fifteen campers and five staff. Two of the staff guys were brothers, and as a joke one day I asked, âYou guys got any juggling clubs?â Who would have expected that there, in the middle of nowhere on the Snake River, the answer would be yes! They were as surprised by the question as I was by the answer! And yes, stoners, but seriously not on the job! Only in the off season.
Mine is the gray beard. Mrs. mota is sitting in the light colored skirt.
I hadnât brought any weed. I was too afraid to transport it on a plane. As it turned out, there was an ER doc and her boyfriend from Seattle who were more than happy to pass a doob every evening. Fucking amazing!
One more. Here, I have dropped a club and will pick it up while the pattern continues. Itâs interesting, you can hear rhythm in the clubs slapping hands. There is a real relationship to music in that sense. The Flying Karamotov Brothers used that musicality as a regular part of their shows.
You know what? I think Iâm
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Thatâs is an awesome story @mota !
What an amazing adventure that would have been. And to meet up with like minded people in the middle of nowhere like that ?!
Definitely an adventure centered for you to enjoy.
You look like a really cool and down to earth dude.
And I know exactly what you mean about the âmusicâ itâs a beautiful rythem you can hear and keeps everything in control. I can imagine your reflexes go by the sound just as much as sight, if not more so. You can tell the pace quickens by ear quicker and more accurately then you could by eye 
I go to a Ren faire every year out here, and my favorite people there are the jugglers and holla hoop girls. Amazing down to earth people like no other. Complete stoner hippies as you said. Just love to travel the country, juggle, and have smoke seshes at night by firelight.
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That is incorrect, theyâre both S2 and F3 if you use the same selection. The S1s are F2s, theyâre a cross of F1s that share both parents. That F1 just happens to be two of the same selection. Selecting an S1 offspring and pollinating it with a clone of itself is how S2s are made. Theyâre non-S2 F3s only when two different S1 selections are mated.
I think you misread the original comment because it specifies that the F3s are only S2s if the selected S1 is mated to itself, and that mating two sibling S1s produces non-S2 F3s. This is how an S2 is made. You canât mate two different S1 selections and call it an S2, itâs just an F3. And if you mate it with the original F1 pollen donor that was crossed with itself, itâs not a self-pollination, itâs a backcross. S2s are by definition the result of two successive self pollinations.
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My apologies @GlassJoeGrows yes I will pay more attention but sometimes the words come out backward to me.
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No problem, glad to clear it up.
Youâre also right that successive self pollinations tend not to be popular as a breeding strategy because of inbreeding depression, and also because you arenât necessarily creating an inbred version of the parent by selecting itâs closest offspring and successively selfing.
This is why backcrossing is the standard for creating inbred lines, by repeatedly mating with the F1 you can inbreed itâs specific genes rather than inbreeding the genes of one of its descendants. There is still inbreeding depression, but for many of these, their value isnât growing them on their own, itâs that they make great parent lines because they reliably pass on their traits to offspring due to inbreeding.
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Recurrent Selection:
This system, as has the following operational features:
(1) plants from a heterozygous source are self-pollinated and at the
same time are evaluated for some desirable character or characters;
(2) plants with inferior performance for the character or characters under improvement are discarded;
(3) the superior plants are propagated from the selfed seed;
(4) all possible intercrosses among these superior progenies are made by hand, or, if this is impractical,
the intercrosses are made by open pollination among the selected progenies;
(5) the resulting intercross population serves as source material for additional cycles of selection and intercrossing.
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It was definitely an adventure!
The rhythm that you feel with your body as youâre literally going through the motions, kind of like a musician tapping their toe, is for me its essence. Itâs fun as can be to get together with other folks, know them or not, and pass clubs. With jugglers who are fairly good, it can be like musicians jamming. Itâs such a blast! And the more people, the more challenge and fun!
If youâre ever in Oregon the weekend after the Fourth of July, it sounds like you need to hit the Oregon Country Fair! Itâs a unique event. There is nothing else like it anywhere.
Representative of nothing, hereâs my son and me in 2015. Iâd been a Security Crew Leader from 1979 until 1995 when I quit going. In 2015 he took over âcarrying the radioâ (being crew leader) of my old shift, 10-2 Watergate, a prime shift and spot! I worked on his crew that year! So what about the intervening 20 years?!
Two old friends of ours behind a mutual friendâs booth. The bigger guy had been on my crew for a couple of years when I asked him to take over as crew leader until my son was ready to take over. Fast forward 20 years, and the kid took over! I kid you not, 20 years!
Hereâs my son and me on the front porch of a palâs house. I was teaching him to pass clubs, and I believe that that very year he got up the nerve to go out to where the jugglers hung out and ask to throw with someone. They all knew who he was because Iâd been juggling with them 3 days a year for years. It was cool as shit.
He has a graying beard now and I was a little younger.
As I proof read and edit this before posting it, I find myself being seriously grateful for the often fun ass life Iâve led! And I want to thank you all, albeit unwittingly, for being a part of it! 
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Wow, I remember seeing them when I was a kid in high school. I actually went to that show with the guy who taught me how to juggle, Andy Sapora. He then went on to join them as Nikita. He also let me borrow his unicycle, but I never really got good at that.
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Nice! I was at a jugglersâ party one time when Dimitri showed up. I canât remember what his real name is, but I remember he was smart as could be, really gregarious and so much fun to juggle with! One of, if not the, best jugglers Iâve ever had the pleasure of throwing with. That would have been about 1989 or 1990.
Yeah, I never rode a uni even though I owned one for a few years. If Iâd been 20âŚ
OMFG, you should so watch this! All two hours! It is pee in your pants funny as well as being simply a great show. Every actor is a vaudevillian and a musician. And yes, itâs really William Shakespeare, starring The Flying Karamazov Brothers on Broadway! (Have I mentioned that Iâve seen them juggle fire naked? Multiple times! HA!)
I wonder if Andy Sapora is in this show?!!!
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Thanks for posting that. Iâll definitely watch it.
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