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Aye aye, couldn’t have said that better (even if I’m against nations) 
I sometimes like to compare this with the strategy employed by crop seeds corporations to lock farmers away from the ability to reproduce seeds themselves and ameliorate the strain for their terroir. Thus becoming dependent on these corporations to always get consistent crops from seeds. I’m aware there are other ways to do so in the broader crop seeds market though. But “our” modern seed market isn’t much different in some regards.
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Yeah I hear you there, it’s all about the new popular cut; not my cup of tea though because as you say it’s a pita to keep all those mothers alive, and it’s also from my personal perspective boring, I don’t think I ever keep many varieties without tweaking them in some direction, it’s a compulsive habit lol. Also down here there isn’t the same availability of cuts; so it’s mostly seed that is the starting point, which suits me tbh as I don’t have to dedicate space to an ever increasing number of mothers/fathers etc. for this reason I tend to not use the backcross to the same female approach. Also I kinda think that keeping cuts is a different planet to the way I’d like to keep things, if that makes sense?
Do most of these type of old school breeders keep their mothers and just produce seed from them? It seems like a lazy way to do it to me; but I guess it’s all just different approaches🤷♂️. I just keep thousands of seeds in backup for every generation so I can step backwards if I screw something up.
Well we just gotta make it happen bro, sooner or later the current approach is going to result in everything being variations on the same cookies crap and that’s just boring to my way of thinking. Maybe I’m in the minority here a a idk.
Failure is just part of it imho: it’s the same thing with all crop breeding, many IBL lines are developed only to be found to not produce F1’s that are good enough for release, even with the largest and most sophisticated breeding operations. You have to be willing to abandon something that just isn’t working and try something else and if you can’t, chances are you’ll probably produce a whole lot of shit imho
Nothing decent is ever one shot work, anything unique and quality is a mountain of work and lots of fails for the occasional win. 30 years of it has taught me this much lol.
True, I have a sneaking suspicion that this method of ‘breeding’ will have a limited run before we will need to search for new genetics to move forward with, hardly anyone develops a new strain from base principles anymore, and truth be known a lot of the genetics we rely on in modern strains were probably not the result of serious breeding efforts so much as a ‘suck it and see’ approach. Or good + good = good. Hey I’ve been guilty of this myself and sometimes you hit the jackpot so I’m not knocking it, but it’s probably part of the reason we have such a mess with poly hybrids now.
Yeah that’s a bit random and uncontrollable for my slightly OCD brain, I at least like to come up with a plan to define the traits of interest that I’m gunning for and make notes across the generations, else it’s just fishing and hoping for something good to turn up and that might be never.
We like to think we are somehow ‘different’ with weed, but we are not really ; the same methods and approach used in other plants also apply for weed. There are breeding approaches we can adopt besides random chance, given the room dedication and resources. Personally I favour the ‘modified bulk method’, but accept that I don’t have the ability to use thousands of plants to do it properly, but it can be scaled down to a hundred or so plants and still work. But it’s a lot of work for many years for sure.
Only sometimes though , it’s probably rare that alleles are confined to a single locus, making it a lot more complicated to fix a trait, which is why numbers are important I guess. There is always a certain amount of throwing the cards in the air, seeing how they land and selecting those that have the trait you are looking for, with traits sometimes not even turning up in the first generation and sometimes not at all no matter how many plants you grow.
You disappoint me lol, idk I have done most of my stuff outdoors and rarely self so I’ve not really seen a high percentage of hermies, it could just be the plants I chose to use, and it might also be that they hermie more indoors, but fkd if I’m growing 18 foot plants in a tent; way too much work for my liking lol.
Now this is something I have worked on because I lived in one of the wettest places on the planet for many years, but it’s really just survival of the fittest, those that don’t rot survive to pass on their genes. Initially I thought it was all about the density of the flowers but then I realised some super dense plants seemed to tolerate being constantly wet without rotting so there is definitely something else involved.
An internationalist pirate, awesome me too lol. 
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In thinking about most of the fames, the legends, the dramas, the strange stories arounds cuts/strains/seeds, the factual links between all strains, the real context of the industry, even OG lol … the analogy is maybe not as stoned that it appear 
It’s very relevant, even if personally i put more the fems in this context. Since the start i consider it as a “Monsantesque shame” of our own (global) community. Behind the “vegan grow”, the quest for “authenticity” and all the hipster veil … they eat fems by kilogrammers. It’s time to charge the canons, to revive Libertalia and to break paper ships ^^
Protecting a (natural) F1 with skills isn’t a thing i will blame personally. I’ve in head way too much persons prone to amnesia and very ungrateful behaviors, it’s a legit defensive strategy. Some are even presented like christic figures, to have factually fucked deeply the scene they come from lol. And considering the fem’s success and volumes, not so much a problematic obviously for motherplant’s hunters.
For the real genetic material anyway, this is no longer a public market since a good decade in my opinion. For the best and the worst as usual. I fucking digress.
Yes, it’s a pain to maintain, and stressful. You have to watch these motherplants constantly and to renew them constantly too to keep them in their best shape. Most of strains losted for diluted versions was just too much aging plants that breeders don’t considered as an annual but as an immortal tree.
I’ve pushed more far, just for the fun of it and to renew the pressure/pleasure. I’ve replaced my veg space by seeds. Literally. And actually … i fucking love it, finally. Hesitation and waste of time with average specimens become an unnecessary luxury, it produce a more focusing context and avoid any temptation to shortcut the wanted standard. But it require reactivity and to take breeding decisions on the fly in term of selection, still a hard old fashioned school.
Take care to don’t avoid efficient tools just by principle. I use BX if i need to, no hesitation. It doesn’t have the same implication at long term than a reversal have. Sometimes also you have to keep a reference around to be sure to outperform the previous generation, because it become tight. No need to set a constant nursery for this. Cannabis don’t specially dislike temporary short ghetto solution with enough love, it stay a sturdy and versatile plant. Keeping around a cannabonsai is not a big deal, at the moment you understand fully (on the vegetal mechanisms) why it’s a bad idea to keep it more than 6 months.
Breeding is generating a cascading number of problem to face, a complete toolbox is required. In case of.
But on the principle i’m more than understanding you, it’s now a daily routine for me. A bet with some friends too ^^
It’s a dangerous shortcut, most of these clones have a story and a true ballistic. It’s why they still alive today in almost everything. I’m not talking about the grow op cuts, but true breeding cuts that are traded for 5 digits. Sometimes even more, the aridity of skills and the quest for the “easiness/quicksilver” have drastically changed the game in the backstages.
Stoners were a lot more demanding also, throwing a random chunk in the market was a suicide. Time have changed, as the perceived value for the price.
Now on a pragmatic point of view … it’s just a cut entering in production. When nothing around can compete this motherplant (sometimes during decades), it’s a bit foolish to don’t get your reward. At least a time.
Ahoy to this ^^ It’s at the base of the wall that you don’t realize that you’re representing a minority, but that you’re most of the time alone. It’s why i like also breeding chit chat, it’s the opportunity to generate maybe new sailors with a map that lead somewhere. And avoiding/preventing the usual bullshitting that push wannabe to crash fast and hard. It’s a dry game, the rate of loses is very high.
You’re partially right. 75% of the work is to fail. 25% is to know why. Until you’re reaching a cruising speed with decent lines, and it become more an artistic marathon after.
But no, you don’t drive an IBL to the failure. It’s an unique lesson to learn, you never do it again trust me. It’s why it’s important to never randomize your moves and always know what you’re doing and why. It’s the principle of mapping a genotype.
At the start it’s all about degraded progeny, then step by step … it become a standard you don’t want to sacrify.
Unfortunately, the disparition of the taste for factual competition promoted self-hype more than i’m able to guess. I’m more and more surprised. It’s a bad thing imho.
And yes, i abandoned the idea to work with cookie stuff the day i was forced to do it ^^ It’s sane. It’s segregation. And the combo of your personal segregations create a true signature in your weeds. As well as to be an unconditional fan of everything cookie, don’t get me wrong on it. USA is obviously waiting for the ultimate cookie, and everybody know that it will not come from Berner. A slot is to take. Like many others.
We are talking here about an half century momentum, if you still have doubts on the legitimacy of dedication and specialization … you’re in front of a philosophic problematic and it’s not my ground at all ^^
Doubts are useless, challenging the said standards is more rewarding at long term.
It’s simple to know if you hit the jackpot : the price of your safety increase drastically so much that you have to make decent bucks to cover your asses.
On poly-hybrid “witch hunt”, i just don’t buy this argument that i find too much spreaded lightly. It’s for me a very bad way to analyze the situation. The disparition of R&D is a problem, the random chunk is a problem, not the poly-hybrids.
Factually it doesn’t have any sense for me, you can drive a poly far in stabilization and output a true new genetic material. It’s the very wrong culprit to burn.
Both approach are legit, and i got the proof of it many time. The only difference is the planification, someone structured can plan and evaluate the time needed for something. An artist not.
But there is no hierarchy in term of weed. Just repeatability and duration in the game.
Modern youth is dumb on this point, they don’t understand that both approach are complementary. If they stop to play role-games and to jump at the throat of each others one minute, they will realize that they are fighting with their best allies to change the whole game. Let’s say again that it’s an opinion, but i really think it.
I’m often disappointing, it’s the particularity to have nothing to sell door-to-door like an encyclopedia seller ^^
I’m searching herms, i generating them, i scratch deep to declare them. And more today than ever.
I can open a Patreon if you want to know all little secrets lol But no, rotting buds and mildiew/fungi attacks are two different resistances. As the leverage that trigger them. You’re right on the density by the way.
Let’s call it botanical varieties if you need it. I don’t mind.
Your open pollination is not a time machine at all. You can’t know what phenotype+phenotype = success or what phenotype+phenotype = failure. It’s a bland round and a Russian roulette strategy. You’e falling in the wishful thinking buddy here. But i don’t mind about it, whats wrong with this. Nothing for me.
But presenting an open pollination as a methodology is way more pushy for my taste, and i can’t ignore it in considering the popularity of this way to avoid any responsibility in the process. Also when i see valuable materials handled with the insane risks that represent this absence of strategy, it make me mad.
It’s not a judgement, just another voice on what you’re claiming that i find important to share.
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To each their own. For me, the open pollination in the beginning simply represents an insurance policy.If I am to find a trait I lose, as a last resort it becomes a last shot to find it.
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Thought of this one when you talked about the seed business being pirates
Pz 
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Bookmarked, 1:49 … i will listen while i’m working on something. I come back here to give a feedback, we are in the losted island of OG in this thread ^^
Finally … ice cream microwaved, ready for the show ^^
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Well, let’s be frank … i tried today (like right now) to continue on a second shot but at 58:48, i reached by far my limit. On the first try, i finished my ice cream on Cannacribs presenting another nice legal grow op ^^
To make a resume of the first hour, they talk about naming strains, the host share an experience with something that look like a random US bud delivery service, he share also often that Barney’s Farm is his nemesis lol, the guest is also talking about drop shipping on watches … there is no real guideline in the discussion, or a real “red thread” purpose. More an evasive chit chat between two friends, and i’m maybe a bit old to appreciate this kind of entertainment.
On EU market they are a bit naive, very in late while they are guessing how are functioning the shit ton of white labels here and obviously not aware of the constraints of large scale EU operations. I will not even speak about the necessity to pay taxes and the administrative constraints of the B2B market here. Also very erroneous on production units of sensi fifteen years ago, at the point to commit a kind of shortcut that group many labels and link them with an unique producer ^^ They don’t really realize how this theory is fucked and they are talking about companies used to deal with the ground since ages.
I try to don’t be too caustic but … it was clearly not their ground. It was a better idea to stay on the marketing and to emit critics and advises from the point of view of the customers, but in structuring it. Not in considering that they are a representative model of the various group of customers ordering seeds online.
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If it is a result of two recessive traits on two different chromosomes then would it look like this.
(0.25) x (0.25) * 0.70 = 4.4% or is it something else? Has anyone ever found a Positronics Super Haze that Tom talks about?
Maybe it is something akin to cross over and just a recombination of traits that still would follow the 5% rule. 1/4 * 1/4 = 1/16 * 70-75% females is the same. Less than 50% and 5% seems like the line has been worked already but still 5% that works. Kinda like the fruit fly scenario.
Recombination is probably the reason?
Chromosome theory with recombination and independent assortment. @Fuel and @hempy
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Someone’s proud of there cowboy boots!
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Yep just an old hayseed trying to understand what all you guys are getting at just have to keep the decimal points closer to application 
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Gonna take some seeds and some time but doable to pull out…
Honestly, I see things like this:
You take your two favorite F1’s and cross them together and you have your F2 generation. You select your best F2’s and cross them together and you have your F3, F3xF3=F4 and so on down the line. This is what is commonly referred to as line breeding, and is a typical old school breeding strategy.
and think the person has already fucked up now. Even true, real-deal, F1’s present some variation. If you’re just grabbing the “best” plants but not the “alike” plants, you’ve already made more work for yourself. Years and years and you’re just spinning the wheels.
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@Cactus you have to account for the possibility of polygenic traits. The majority of cannabis traits are polygenic, so there is a high chance that very special phenos like for example, THH and Sour Diesel. Is majority on a polygenic scale. This is why they are very hard to pin down.
I’ve popped 100 THH and filled my 5 x 10 flowering room of 50 ladies and there was good individuals in there, but not the uber sativa he’s describing.
You also have to account for that Tom is a very skilled salesmen, and as a salesmen creating such hype would be very beneficial for sales.
As I said before, if there was a 5% uber pheno, a lot of people would have found it by now and there would be some cut floating around for sure.
There is lot to consider and until you have grown and find the plant yourself, you cant really guess what traits it possesses that makes it unique.
Also, I don’t think that Tom have made any cultivars himself, only reproducing other breeders creations. So take everything he says with a grain of salt and don’t put any breeder, ever… On a pedestal.
Pz
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Seeds don’t have names. Salesmen put names to seeds. Cannabis is grown from cutting, not seed. Tell every person you meet this. Run around screaming it. They’re all wondering WHY the weed they smoke sucks. Tell them it’s the seeds. Your grandchildren’s clone value will increase. Seeds will be worthless,like the US dollar.
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I sure hope not banking on my collection being worth lots when I’m dead and gone. Lol
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5x10 feet or meters?
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Meters ofc the actual area was 13x7, but with wall fans and extra area to go around the room. The total grow area was approximately 5x10m. This was the biggest grow room I had as a caretaker and I used it to pheno hunt medicine. A dear friend helped me build it and I used it for over 6 years.
Pz
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Maybe you’ re focusing too much on heterosis? Things are not binary when it comes to this. Even in industrial food crop breeding. Heterosis is not on or off, there are different levels of it. Proper inbreeding is often taking that into account and made using several parallel lines from a first cross, precisely to keep a level of heterosis when all this lines are crossed back together and become a released product.
But maybe I’m not getting your question. It’s sunday though 
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