Does conventional breeding and filial notation apply to today's polyhybrids?

Breeder's Lab
#1

So a quick thought experiment to get us all on the same page.

Breeder A crosses a single purebred “Snowstorm” to a single purebred “Illshit” and gets an “F1 ShitStorm.” He chooses his favorite two plants to make more seeds, and releases it in the F2 generation.
Breeder B crosses her purebred “Big Dog” with her purebred “Fat Cat” and with the same process of choosing one favorite male and one favorite female, releases “CatDog” in the F3 generation.

When Grower 1 crosses his single favorite female CatDog with his single favorite male ShitStorm…
And Grower 2 crosses his single favorite male CatDog with his single favorite female ShitStorm…
And on, ad infinitum.
Does F1 even apply?

To make it that much worse, in real life the original four varietals are most often polyhybrids too. What does the name even mean when every single seed produces a different end product?

How do we mitigate the damage to the genepool caused by excessive bad-breeding? Conversely, do you even consider this to be damaging to the Cannabis plant as a whole?

(Forgive me if this post isn’t very clear, I haven’t smoked in a few days. I had a specific point in mind when I started typing and my train of thought derailed a little bit. Lol.

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Cannabis crosses are not F1s, so says science!
#2

Smoke! Just reading that hurt my brain.
:grin:

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#3

Simple terms to answer the first question, yes it’s still an F1. Even if it’s a cross between two different F1 crosses.

With polyhybrids it’s tricky cause there’s a lot of potential from all the different genes in the pool, but conversely there’s a lot of work to fine that perfect unique plant. If you want to stabilize the genetics so you have seed stock as close to that plant as possible you’d start inbreeding it back to F4-5.

I’ve always looked at it as if you want to preserve a plant or specific genetics backcross it. If you want to evolve a line you’d cross siblings consistently to F4-5.

That’s my take on it any how, I’m sure more of the seasoned breeders will chime in and take off with this tread.

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#4

I would say no, filial just means offspring so yes I guess it does
but they are more like distant cousins so maybe not really

In the truest sense Its like how our names get carried down
once you mix in new families at every generation
F1 - jones
becomes
F2 - peters
becomes
F3 - Smith
etc

The Filial really only relates to “Jones” family
It only stays Jones if you marry your sister :joy:

This is a problem and could cause issues in the future
when you had distinct lines you could outbreed then inbreed to reinvigorate
once you have all families basically inbred you have to start bring hemp back in (which I guess we have with all the CBD strains)
so maybe thats bollocks
I suppose nature prefers diversity.

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#5

Watts defines an F1 as:
the heterozygous offspring between two homozygous but unrelated seedlines. This makes sense and gives the F1 generation a unique combination of traits; uniform phenotype but not true breeding. This is important in the plant breeding world. This means that when a customer buys F1 seeds that they should expect uniform results.

source- Watts. 1980. Flower & Vegetable Plant Breeding Grower Books, London

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Landraces and heirloom
#6

Ahh @Scissor-Hanz , I love ya!

This is my issue exactly, F1 implies P1s, and P1s imply some level of homogeneity.

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#7

I thought it was just me :wink:

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#8

i had to look them up so i’ve included the definitions below for anyone else that’s curious. i still don’t really understand lol.

Heterozygous

Definition
adjective
(1) Of, or pertaining to an individual (or a condition in a cell or an organism) containing two different alleles for a particular trait.
(2) Having dissimilar alleles that code for the same gene or trait.

and

Homozygous

Definition
adjective
(1) Of, or pertaining to an individual (or a condition in a cell or an organism) containing two copies of the same allele for a particular trait located at similar positions (loci) on paired chromosomes (see homologous chromosomes).
(2) Having two identical alleles that code for the same trait.

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#9

The alleles are the possible characteristics, let’s use only hair color, for simplicity.

If there are two different alleles for the same trait -maybe one produces red hairs, and the other produces orange hairs - there are (at least) two possible expressions. That’s heterozygous.

If there’s only one allele available for hair color, the entire line will true breed for that characteristic. Than its homozygous.

Of course real life is much more complicated, and sometimes traits are linked to others… But that’s beyond my comprehension

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#10

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#11

Hey @oleskool830

Your kitty has something stinky on its paw, lol.

99

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#12

Lolololol! Hope you’re well and lifted my friend.
:cowboy_hat_face:

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#13

I’ll apologize b4 hand i think in extremes. Yet your saying is that the single factor of breeding with a poly has negative effect on genealogy? Is that bc of the human intervention of selective breeding? Or we talking nazi pure blood is the ultimate race kinda thing? Obviously you need selective breeding bc otherwise they’ll revert back to herm eventually. And if the time is taken to pick good breeding stock how is that negative, under any circumstances. I think hybrid vigor in of itself is proof that it’s positive. I’ve been graced the chance to grow a strain that a family ibl’ed since the early 70’s and it was fantastic. Yet it didn’t cook me breakfast n give me a knober after. Weather indica sativa or a mix all cannabis matters.

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Seed Run Co-Op Bodhi F2 TE Remix
#14

Polyhybrids just take more work. When it comes down to it its simply section selection selection.
Anything can be made true breeding with time, but selecting polyhybrid with more common ancestry gets you their quicker.

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#15

What?

I don’t understand what your even trying to get at

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#16

Detrimental to the well-being or survival of the plant. No.

Detrimental to the market? When we have thirty five different names for the genetics that are OGKush, and on the other hand, thirty five different buds all with the same name? I think so.

Edit: I’m not against polyhybrids, I’m against polyhybridizing polyhybrids. There needs to be some work put in to ensure the seeds express the characteristics that are advertised. We wouldn’t accept a package of “white eggplant seeds” that produces white eggplants only once in a while, or Romanesco broccoli that may or may not produce Romanesco broccoli, depending on whether you purchased enough packs to find that “keeper broccoli plant”

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#17

Agreed and considering that all 35 are likely the same plant under different growing conditions.
Its like buying a stud akc German shepherd and breeding to your registered female and getting puppies that look slightly different, thinking you got shafted.
If the plants aren’t identicle twins everyone screams pheno hunt.

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#18

Killer dude I’ve been on a kick about that for a while.
We need to get in line with the veggie breeders and get Serious about this stuff.
If I’m growing tga the void then interbreed them I should get something relatively close to tga the void, or white widow or purple punch. Not just a bunch of random plants.
I ran into this with mycoteck 413 chem 5 seeds planted 5 drastically different plants like indica, sativa, ruderalis, drastic. Polyhybrids bred with polyhybrids. So if a seasoned tomato gardener wants to get into cannabis and runs into this he’s gonna work the strain and blow its breeder out of the water. I guess it goes both ways.

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#19

I’m saying good bud is just that. How you get their isn’t an issue imo.

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#20

Bananas are a great example of how well standardization can work. Maybe it’s the black sheep in me but any talk of uniform makes me cringe.

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