Feminized or Fem for breeding

Breeder's Lab
#33

Yes this is the main point. Tomatoes are also more difficult to cross pollinate and easier to self pollinate. They don’t use an “S” convention. I think people get a bit hung up on this because cannabis is dioecious, but breeders of monoecious plants do not make any distinction like this, and their plants are always selfing, because they are not obligate outcrossing plants like cannabis.

These conventions are used in a larger plant breeding context than cannabis. Even though we might make a distinction, there is generally not one among wider audiences.

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#34

If the parental stock is F2, and is selfed, it would be an S1 of F2.
If the parental stock is F4,and is selfed, it would be an S1 of F4.

S1s are feminized meaning they have XX chromosome. They don’t carry the male traits outside of how it expresses itself as a female. You wont find males.
F2, F3, etc have XY chromosome. They will have males.

Its a clear distinction between the two.

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#35

M/F doesn’t have anything to do with it. You could reverse an F1 female and cross it to another F1 female and it wouldn’t be an S1.

I think the important thing is that people who grow cannabis feel that it’s important to know whether their seeds are S gens or not, and so we want people to denote it. Nothing wrong with that, it is important, and genetically important to know because of how cannabis prefers to breed. But it is still one way to make a “second filial generation”.

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#36

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Has anyone tried this product diluted?

Looking for a tried and true product in Canada which seems hard these days haha

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#37

From what I have read (and not all that much or I have it confused) some feminize the seeds and feminize the offspring a number of generations in order to have a purer line and then cross with a male. If the feminized seeds are just a copy of the mom with no variation then there is no point to going more than one generation. I could be wrong though.

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#38

And this is the opposite of colloidal silver:

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#39

M/F has a lot to do with it. If a farmer buys “F2s”, expecting S1s he gonna be upset to find males that end up pollinating his room. If a breeder buys S1s expecting to find males in his pack (like with F2s), he’s gonna be very disappointed. Male Females has a lot to do with the distinction of S1 and F2s.

It wouldn’t be an S1 because its outcrossed, not selfed

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#40

M/F has nothing to do with S1 vs F2. You can have F2s that are feminized and not S1.

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#41

Feminized F2s are either F2 S1 (selfed female from the 2nd generation) or its a new line because of the outcross (i.e. F1 ).

There is a difference between selfed seeds and filial seeds, and much of the difference has to do with the chromosomes they carry (ie. XX female or XY male). It seems absurd to me say otherwise, but if you can share proof I’m all ears (eyes) but the distinction is important so that people know what they are getting when they pop a seed pack.

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#42

You’re just wrong. S1 seeds can be male, if a male is reversed and self-pollinates the fertile female flowers; 25% will be non-viable YY crosses, 25% will be female and 50% will be male. F2 seeds can be feminized, if a female is reversed and pollinates other females of the F1 generation.

That being said, I do agree the distinctions are important and that people should know what they’re getting when they pop a seed pack. It’s also important for us all to be speaking the same language, and using made-up jargon that only applies to cannabis is a good way to not be doing that. That’s the point behind using scientific nomenclature.

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#43

No, I’m not wrong. You’re just not following - which is fine - its a complex subject and we are all learning every day. Believe what you want. But you guys are confusing a very clear distinction between two very different methods of breeding.

If a male is reversed and pollinates (im guessing thats what you meant, not self pollinate) a female, depending whether the female was of the same generation (ie sister) or another line entirely will dictate whether its filial geneation or an f1 outcross. Either way they are not S1s. They wont be feminized though - from your own admission - so I don’t know why you chose that example.

Feminized F2s are just that, not S1.

But not here to argue. Just wanted to make the distinction that S1s and F2s are not the same.

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#44

Right now I am developing a line, at the moment at P3, hope to take it up to P5.

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#45

A male doesn’t need to be reversed to pollinate another female. That’s what males do. I’m not confusing anything - I meant a male self-pollinating its own female flowers after being reversed. It’s possible, it’s just not something that most people do. A male self-pollinating is a S1, assuming it’s the first self-pollinated generation. That’s why I chose that example. They’re not feminized, but they are the result of a self-pollination.

You’re correct that if a male pollinates a female, it will result in either a filial generation or an outcross depending on what strain that female is. That’s basic nomenclature. Technically, calling those outcrosses F1 is not correct unless the parents were both from inbred lines - it’s only a true F1 hybrid if both parents breed true. Most strains don’t breed true, so most outcrosses are F2 polyhybrids even if they’re called F1s by the cannabis industry. The cannabis industry is marketing to stoned people, and wants to keep a complex subject simple. :wink: That’s also why male self-pollinations don’t exist to the cannabis industry, because they’re pointlessly complicated to use in actual growing, and thus why S1s are considered to be always feminized - to the point where people like you get it confused with meaning feminized in the first place, apparently.

You’re right, they’re not. You’re wrong about why they’re not. That being said, I’m not going to keep banging my head into this brick wall; even if I manage to correct your nomenclature, there’s a million others who don’t know what they’re talking about who will just continue spreading genetic misinformation because they don’t know any better. So yeah, we can agree to disagree. :slight_smile: Have a good one. :peace_symbol:

Good luck with the pheno hunting. :stuck_out_tongue: That’s a lot of parents to work through all the combinations of, but if you actually manage to isolate and breed for what you want from it that’d be awesome! You’re shooting for a 2:1 or 3:1 CBD:THC, right? I hope it’s possible to get that with some stability, I’ve heard that CBD varieties are actually due to a recessive trait in the first place so it can be tougher. Then again, someone bred Freakshow, so clearly stabilizing recessives can be done. :wink:

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#46

Oh shit, did I use the wrong character again? I meant G3 and to G5.

#47

I’ve heard Breeder Steve from spice of life talk about taking a selection to S3 and then crossing a regular, related male into that S3 to reinvigorate it. Than release as a regular line, with no mention of the work on in. It’s an old breeders tech you don’t hear about much.

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#48

I think these abbreviations are a bit obsolete when applied to modern cannabis. It takes two P1s to make a true F1 and who does that anymore? And when you cross seeds you’ve received into each other, do you take into account the filial generations done before receiving them?

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#49

I think its seed chucking ftw nowadays

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#50

Can you grow 2 different F1 females? yes
Can you reverse one of them and cross it to the other? yes
Is it an F2? yes
Is it an S1? no
Is it an outcross? no

There you go, feminized F2s that are not S1s.

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#51

[quote=“Cormoran, post:45, topic:72324”]
A male doesn’t need to be reversed to pollinate another female. That’s what males do. I’m not confusing anything - I meant a male self-pollinating its own female flowers after being reversed. It’s possible, it’s just not something that most people do. A male self-pollinating is a S1, assuming it’s the first self-pollinated generation. That’s why I chose that example. They’re not feminized, but they are the result of a self-pollination.

We can agree to disagree - but you never disproved my point - and only (condescendingly) responded with some impractical made up example of a selfed male pollinating itself.

Nobody does this (anymore), because a) thats how you get herm lines by pollinating the same plant b) noone is trying to find different expressions of how a male expresses its traits in (mostly) male progeny. So whether you right or wrong (your half wrong), its a useless moot point - unless you want herm lines.

Now spreading misinformation is telling people (noobs that run across this thread) that F2 and S1s are the same and conflating the two, when in practical terms - S1s are selfed females, have XX and will 99% of the time not have male plants. F2s (f3s etc) are filial inbred, have Y chromosome and will have male plants. Now if you want to mentally masturbate to figure out a way that’s not always the case (like the reversed male example) - go right ahead…but its a waste of time and confusing to those who haven’t been around this plant as long as I have.

Technically, calling those outcrosses F1 is not correct unless the parents were both from inbred lines - it’s only a true F1 hybrid if both parents breed true. Most strains don’t breed true, so most outcrosses are F2 polyhybrids even if they’re called F1s by the cannabis industry.

This is just real bad info because its half true. Yes you are (half) correct that true f1 hybrid come from inbred lines…but the key is they are UNRELATED. Thats the key. F1 polyhybrid x f1 polyhybrid (unrelated) is just another f1 polyhybrid…not f2. With respect (because we are all continuously learning), I think you need to relearn what these terms actually mean. If the donor was related to the receiver, then it would be f2. Filial inbreeding (f2, f3) means just that - filial brother to sister. If its not brother to sister, then its either a outcross or backcross.

#52

Show me proof.

F1 female x F1 unrelated female = Feminized F1 outcross - Not F2.

Its not filial inbreeding to a second generation.