Thank you for explaining RRS (I’m outta likes again).
I really like your thinking on a larger gene pool. I see a narrowing of the gene pool dictated by THC percentages (and to some extent CBD percentages). Flowering times seem to be another ‘gene pool limiter.’ I often wonder what we are losing in genetics, and I feel like this thread could be good for discussing how we can breed cannabis with different criteria (and what those criteria might be?).
That’s my stoned thoughts on something I’m genuinely interested in, but know little about.
It’s all about breeding with every variation of the plant intact, so that we’re not losing phenotypes that we didn’t know existed. It’s just structured the way it is because A+B =/= B+A, so we try em both ways and choose the best one empirically.
Fuck plant limits.
(Editted To Add: I would never disregard plant limits, or commit any felonious acts in general. This statement is said in jest )
My suspicion is that landraces develop from semi isolated cultivation of small families of “strains” with limited interbreeding over human generational time spans. There has likely been occasional breeder intervention but mostly people growing what they wanted to use with that and robustness in the native environment being favored.
My thoughts as well hashish as been around a long time…they claim all people came from Africa and I claim all weed came from sativa’s lol I have no proof but when has an American ever needed proof to make a wild accusation lol
I understand that ruderalis is not the best tool to use when converting a working strain to auto. I know Lowryder was used for a long time. Is it still the goto or are there definitively better strains for this?
Big subject and nice inputs, let’s try to put another stone on the wall. And let’s start by the most casual thing, i’m brave yeah ^^
Today it’s a polemic question, i catch the opportunity to share what i’ve saw with my own eyes on the subject.
Preservation is mostly done now by “little guys”, who are in general independent from the market. It exist a niche also, where a fews breeders are specialized on a specific “classic” strain and its hybrids. But to be clear : this good behavior in the industry is totally ignored for profits. Even the “firestarters” of our little green world (sensi seeds and all its childrens) have traded this obligation for the productivity. It’s half salty, but the cold truth must be exposed clearly on the technical side :
maintaining a genpool have a cost in space, time and money which should not be ignored. It sound generic like that but when you drive your genetics this way, 75% of the time you’re maintaining your lines and, sometimes, you dare an hybrid. I was in this clan before entering in the business, i have been forced (by customers) to leave this clan and now than i’m retired i return to the clan. I say that not only to expose myself, but because it’s a generic sequence now. Best strains and seeds have the tendencies to be the very first ones of the catalog in these modern conditions. And again "why ? " : because the time necessary to do it. The cycles are very long (for the market and the customers), and a normal time to output something decent and competitive was always around 5 years for an hybrid. If not an entire life for a fews strains who have writed the history of cannabis over decades.
technically you’re not in the obligation to maintain a genpool to output good hybrids. A good network is enough, and this is the new modus operandi of the seedbanks. I don’t blame that, it’s a darwinian game and just a matter of adaptation to a demand.
So to be totally neutral with this question, i’ve to say than both ways are tangible to output good hybrids. But only one give you the possibility to improve a strain to its maximum potential, needless to explain which one.
These strains exist, but they will be totally different in function of the clan you’re choosing. Stupid example : the C99 versus the Jack Herer. The C99 offer a shortcut than can saved years in refinement, the Jack Herer offer the freedom and longevity : you can make the number of “C99” projects you want.
I’m no longer in this madness but it’s how i’ve started : you can push the concept to the landraces VS “modern hybrids”. It’s exactly the same problematic. The JH is the shortcut than will save decades over to blend your own from multiples raw stock. So, more liberty again and longevity but the final results are very long to obtain in considering the actual standarts.
It’s not guaranteed at all. By example, a landrace will do the reverse if you hybridize it with a sensi seeds skunk#1. And it’s the most important point of the consideration : you have to consider the source.
If i take only your description and than i have to guess the strain, i will say in less than twos seconds : the white widow. Which is not really an afghani. You see, it’s a bit tricky. But beautiful at a time, breeding give you the pen to write the story yourself.
The G13 is well known to produce better hybrids than its original state, in a very dominant manner (the majority of strains react well to it, which is pretty uncommon). You get everything : yield, horsepower, vigorous secondaries …
In this context you have to consider the hashplant of sensi seeds as an “host” diluted by the G13, specially when you have worked a bit with the first lines. Good weed who wear his name rightly, but in a weak plant which genetically is not a good stalion. Typically what i’m calling an “host” of hybridization. The term “transparent” have been used in the topic, i like it in this context.
Hemp is usefull to “hardened off” strains too many developed in indoor. Because it’s rustic. But no, they are not specially the shortest strains on the planet. True morocco cultivars are faster, and you can modify easily a sensi seeds afghani#1 to be that fast also. Myself i’ve done it with the dutch passion orange bud … yeah a skunk lol Lenght of flowering time is up to you in breeding, you can push the line to flower faster than light or like an haze … it’s just hormonal and easy to manage by selection (really) with any type of strain. Even a pure sativa (done also with a south africaan pushed to 50-60 days, from near 6 months initially).
The Lowryder project desserve today to be considered. We was numerous to laught at it when the first buds was coming out, now it’s a true pandemic gold mine. The “autoflowering” trait is not dominating so much strains outcrossed, you have to maintain it and to output a decent release you have more steps to do before the release than an “100% cannabis hybrid”. At long term yes, the hemp will dominate totally the hybrid no matter what you’re using.
Afghani/Kush/Skunk is the recipes the most used for hybrids since ages. It have proven to be very productive in term of diversity but also in term of time needed to output something decent.
I like this guy and all he try to do (polemic or not). He want acts and facts, and he try his best to obtain it in an adverse market. If i’m not specially ok with all his conclusions, i appreciate a lot his researches and awareness in term of long cycles. He’s also the ganja farmer i’ve always dreamed to be.
True “Catalyzes” males are very rares with insane ratios of occurrences in lines not breeded to output it. They was gold bars back in the day, with insane price for clones, but it’s no longer the case and i’m not from this school. I rather prefer to promote and explain than it’s very important to split/develop your lines dedicated to produce males. This way you can be very destructive in IBL with the female’s averages, then improving your males in peace.
Also, it’s when this guy start to be controversal for his divergences on his own philosophy. I say that with respect, it’s a dynamic. When you want 0% printfoot of your males, it’s because you want to generate more occurence of a specific female’s phenotype. Which lead to the radical case of today of a single “elite cut” producing a nebula of strains. In term of narrowed genpool, you can’t do something more drastic.
It exist many ways to produce a stable F1 than is looking like clones, the true magic is the heterosis and the knowledge of a catalog of genpool’s dominances.
Also sometimes, it exist strains than can’t be preserved a long time without dedicating a line to maintain their males.
The criterias of your males and females should be your goals. And only your goals. If you want to BX an elite cut to make it a regular line stabilized, yes the perfect male is the one than will be the more “transparent” possible. But only if you have only 4 months to develop a strain for the mass. And only in this case.
Because you have to consider the “amount” of informations blended each time. A “transparent male” will not only give let’s say more trichomes or THC rate. He will bring in the cross the same amount of datas than the female. At long term, trust me you want clear segregations on traits you’re mastering, to dilute it yourself pass per pass.
Always consider the seed as an equal part of the male and the female, and you will avoid a lot of useless errors/tries/fails. If you don’t see the male in your offspring, you can be sure than his presence is very dominant in depth and a true flow than is leading the line. There is no waste or “blank” allele in genetic. The less you can see (phenotypic), the more the line use it as genetic “skeleton”.
Totally.
The most important is to explore them in respecting the human you are, and to work only with plants you love. Not plants than you just like or “should be worked”. The chemotype is also very important, it’s better to improve strains with the a high/stone maded for you than fighting with something you’re traped to keep below the average in term of competition.
We have all our little bitches ^^ Mine are modern hazes, it’s my comfort zone and when i leave it i just do “meh” hybrids.
A good first step is to known who are your bitch, first before all. Coffeeshops, fiestas, events, now dispensaries … use everything you can to quickly decypher how work your own receptors, then where you will be the best at work.
Sorry for Mr Soul, but it’s like saying than the sky is blue. It’s useless. Yes, good parents produce good offspring, off course, but everybody on earth know that.
Now the sentence can have deleterious effects on the “little guys”, because they will think than they have to cross every single female with every single male to choose the good hybrid. It’s not breeding, it’s not even an industrial method … in fact it’s nothing more than producing random seeds.
Now, let’s play a little with this kind of non sense methodology and make it valuable in all simplicity. Do it like he say it, ok, but apply a very strong epigenetic factor to all plants : like i don’t known, plants grown all their life in hydric stress. Now we’re talking about breeding ^^ But it imply in the facts to be aware of the phenotype’s answer, recording the linked traits etc … not just testing 10 000 seeds in the hope to obtain something.
Take care, always remember than this game is a vicious one.
Well said.
My very first answer add a bit of pragmatism in this consideration and was the first part of my answer. Now i can enter in the second part with your introduction.
1 : The goal is the most important and have to be builded with the material from the begin.
“i want a yielder” is not a right goal.
“The big bud / critical mass is my favorite yielder, but it lack of (put what you want inside)” : better.
“The biggest phenotype of my haze have the potential to create a monster if i find the right short partner” : much better
“I known than the skunk catalyze the yield of the NL#5Haze, but the potency is harmed a lot. I love these twos weeds as fck. I will make an hybrid, keep a F1 female for reference, to push the line to its maximum in net yield (trimmed/dryed) then i will close it with a drastic potency selection to have the best of the twos worlds” : you can lead somewhere with that ^^
2 : All roads lead to Rome.
Sometimes, during a BX process, you have to inbred one or twos generations in discovering balances expressed in late during the process. Sometimes the reverse, sometimes you need shortcuts … it’s very important to stay as flexible than the genetic code itself. Always remember than an human lifespan is very short to handle a genpool. Do strategic choices, yes more time is always better to refine something but it’s also great to can accomplish something before you die ^^ And better, if you can accomplish multiples success.
This “potentiometer” is managed by twos factors : your goals and the time you give to it, and what will say the plants in their segregation. You can’t really plan the segregations, with ton of experience and skills you can only plan the spectrum of it. But you can write black on white all your priorities on traits, all the strategies you will adopt … it’s the breeding plan. Due to the long cycles, it’s important to make it a bible and to respect it like it’s writed. The more constancy in selection, the more results.
3 : I known it’s silly to say that, like saying than the sky is blue lol, but the vigor is the most reliable expression of dominance. Even in a fully recessive phenotype with a shitty ratio like 1:100, 1%. Herms are a good example, even if it’s also a mutation, which is by definition dominant over everything else like all mutations. Don’t think about super mutants of marvel, humans like us are mutating not each day but close. Our DNA is fucked since we born to the death, and create sometimes bad things.
The vigor will teach you how work the blend, and you can push the consideration in creating different layers of vigor to best “source” the donor and its balance in the specimen.
You can have 95 plants which don’t survive naturally (line which extinct) and 5 ultra vigorous, it don’t mean than the 5 are dominant in the genotype. They are (mendelian) recessive-recessive (RR), their weight is minimal. But they are planned by the life’s cycle to be the new leader the next decades. You have then to adapt your breeding plan to this situation to counter the extinction, in reversing the tendency. By example, find the epigenetic factor than will improve the health of the 95 and than will exctinct the 5. This factor can be your knowledge of the line but also simply the hydric stress, starving … any reliable torture for these specimens.
Methods are numerous, but the right one is to be able to use them all if it’s necessary to reach your goals.
Let’s say than you don’t give a shit for your preferences, your profile, your comfort zone etc … and want only a reliable tools kit.
To make feminized lines :
white widow and nothern lights to reverse and pollenate the stuff
good network to get the cuts who are the “flavor of the year”, depend on winds
To make hemp hybrids :
a dioecious hemp, in its industrial form.
good network to get the cuts who are the “flavor of the year”, depend on winds to can write “sour diesel auto”, “blabla auto” etc …
To make CBD :
a cut of ACDC or a large selection on cannatonic
the more tasty lines i can find on the planet, to reduce drastically this horrible taste and scent of hemp ^^
To make a time machine and see if i can compete the boomers on 2000-2020 period :
skunk #1
afghani #1
masterkush
nothern light
an haze from mr nice, the silver haze to stay in the backbone
To have a “plug and play” genpool :
NL#5 x Haze
AK47
Critical Mass
Black widow
any masterkush refined by americans
To have the genpool i can bring in an island for the rest of my life :
everything is on my shitty grow log, nothing in the previous list in fact. Not my fault, just my comfort zone ^^
And that’s the most important to decide what you should to get :
5 lines to maintain at a time is allready intensive, but it’s the right number imho for a single breeder.
if you can’t smoke daily one of these lines during one month, you have to replace it by the right one for you. Or you will never do sacrifices and mad things for her, and it’s only in these conditions than you’re obtaining the best. Wich is your initial goal, no matter what you want to do.
you don’t need a gigantic farm to launch 1000 seeds to select. Just to known what you’re doing and why. I firmly advise to use all your seeds and to renew them by fresh ones all the time. You don’t want to run blindfolded. You want to have the choice of the king. You want to be the god of your plants ^^
never think “oh fck, i’m sure i’ve killed/losted the best phenotype” but think “i’ve not made enough seeds, i’ve not launched enough seeds”.
think about your very first weed … not a concept. The best breeding projects i’ve tasted was always a “time machine” revamped.
Keeping a reference of your work and to compare it, at each step, is strictly an obligation in breeding. Some fall in the trap to think “i will never get better” and will articulate their genpool around, it’s a mistake. And a mathematical non sense.
Sometimes also, you’re happy with a female which is close to the final weed you want initially. On the moment and first cones. But you discover in a daily use after one month than it’s just a boring weed with a weak chemotype.
I respect artists who work by inspiration only, but they can fall as fast than they reach the top of the peak. I prefer to bet on the constancy and the freedom offered by the cold methodism.
The logic is good, but have to be tempered with pragmatism. Unfortunately for those which have very accurate goals, the step where the line will lose gen’s answer is very long. The recent trend putting in all heads than breeding is destructive and than open pollination is preservation is very destructive for our community. I don’t joke.
To quote something factual, i’ve started to deal with the sweet tooth#3 in the very end of 90’s. It’s only now, in 2020 than the line have losted resistance for pests. And only for an unique reason : she have been never breeded outdoor a single time, like she was created. And being a multiple BX initially … so supposed to be worse than anything else in this concept.
At this stage of refinement (perfect word), i will need maybe three seasons to bring her back in it’s initial resistance. At the cost of a very little dilution of my refinement. It’s not absolute, it’s not gone for ever in a single human lifespan. This kind of deleterious drift happend like … i don’t known, your grand-grand-grand father created an hybrid. And you start to experience the begin of the drift. To give an idea.
In one single human lifespan, catastrophic failures are impossible without a genetic scissor (true DNA engineering). It’s too short for the DNA.
That’s the perfect scenario, and personnally the way i try to maintain the more i can even if it put me in the shit more than it ease my processes. But it’s hard, very hard and you need to known very well the lines since a while.
Driving 5 strains in a single line each is very intensive as it. Now imagine when you multiply these lines by enough parralel lines necessary to reach your goals … it become insanity. It’s why it’s so much important to love the weed you work, as fuck. At the point to can smoke only each one during a very long period without being bored or in need for kilogrammers because the tolerance. It’s one of the most important key of the success imho.
Now, a little secret (only for newcomers) : you have choosed the right genpool fitting your style, needs, wants … ok. But remember that for ages : never drive a main line for an hybrid. NEVER.
If you plan to, let’s say crossing a WW x JH to shorten the JH. Don’t inbred your WW to be faster, like you have allready spotted, create a specific WW line with high pressure on male’s timing. Then extract your male from this line when you have reached the max.
Trust me, it’s a secret of longevity for all types of your lines. Never specially another thing than dedicated parralel lines.
Even if it’s a pure IBL project. Follow the wave of segregations in splitting them, don’t fight against it. With that in mind, you can maintain everything and obtain what you want much faster than just in waiting the good phenotype a day.
I think it’s clear for you in your head, but my hands are forced to say : WTF ? You have to choose between rolling dices and a total control in fact, there is no intermediary than will ease the decisionnal aspect. Choices, fails and sucess have to be assumed, reverted back, pushed … it’s how you reach the full potential, in exploring the genetic potential with drives.
Three random successive pollinations for only one generation, it’s like putting rocks in your pocket and trying to swim faster than a boat ^^ In fact an open pollination will be better at this step, because more productive and done in a single step.
Now let me talk with my dirty hands and consider these twos scenarios :
scenario one : launching 6 seeds, making 9 lines and waiting for 9 seasons to can write in the breeding plan which one is the right one.
scenario twos : launching 100 seeds, keeping the 4 best paired finalists (true couple of close sisters and brothers, D & R) and waiting for 2 seasons to write the conclusions on the phenotypes potential.
Phenotypes are not individual genotypes, it’s a big mistake to consider than you will able to save all variations. It’s impossible.
Each sample should be launched in its maximum number to be able at least to see how the couple is expressing the initial genotype, then to select the next couple for the next episode on the fly. That’s 9 x 4 months, 36 months, to just be able to see what is happening … in F1 bro ! F1 is a mirage builded by heterosis, it will not teach anything to you by the lack of real segregations. In F1 it’s the step zero, a new complete start where you have zero background on the hybrid.
You don’t do selection when it’s highly necessary, and you do one when you’re forced to do it blindfolded ! Take care dude, in wanting something conservative you act very destructive this way. Specially if you work on resistances.
Now than you have a segregation in F2, you ignore them and re-blend it to shuffle the cards again. One single bad segregation on a single male at this step and it’s the end of your strain.
And you finish like this hindi tale, “the chessboard of sissa”, if you want to insure a constancy in your development.
Man it’s just crazy ^^
Replace it with four successive open pollination where you manage a single strong epigenetic factor (pest, nutes, water, light … anything you want to play with) as the only leverage, and i promise you than you will end in F5 with something a lot more valuable. In less time, a lot less efforts, with more efficiency (accuracy) and a lot less destructive for the potential.
Kevin have spreaded a bad thing there, with all the sympathy i have for the man and his will to do something, i’m forced to blame him.
Driving a strain by its THC percentage doesn’t affect at all the whole shape of an entire genotype. It’s 100% enzymatic. In fact it doesn’t really matter and is narrowing nothing.
What will give the real consequence is :
choosing the more potent specimen in the weakest phenotypes (vigor)
choosing the more potent specimen in the stronger phenotypes (vigor)
choosing only one exceptionnal recessive specimen to build a genotype with (basically, an elite cut which have nothing in common with the dominant specimens of the genotype, like the Chesse by example).
the time you give to the line to extract each of these specimens and to compare them in the cone, to choose the best compromise ^^
Again, not at all. You can make potent a hemp line, you can reduce a malawi in something close to industrial fiber strains … the only limitation is the human in charge of this job and the time he have to reach the goal.
We lose genetics in ignoring it. Simply. And new marketing abuse the lack of curiosity and dedication of people to keep them trapped in never-ending loop of recycled strains. It’s how is narrowed the genpool : people asking always the same thing, and breeders who have no choice but using always the same thing to survive to the game.
imho, and before to talk about narrowed genpool, all new growers should experience the classics which are the backbone of near all strains of today : skunk, nothern light, masterkush, jack herer (or a close sister like the SH etc), white widow, blueberry and afghani #1. To limit the list to main lines than you can easily recognize in hybrids without any breeding’s background.
When you have grown and tasted these 7 lines one time, i can promise you a new world of consideration about this problematic.
Don’t be the king fooled by sissa ^^
You can’t lose phenotypes, they are generated by the genotype. But you can lose a genotype if you don’t explore it.
Vicious right ?
It’s a good synthesis imho.
You make my day with this one ^^
Damn it’s a bit long and i’ve tryed to be short, sorry for the average english and your headache to read it.
That’s awesome. I definitely underestimated the plants abilities.
I’m sincerely thankful that you disassembled my lego castle as it gives me the opportunity to build it up stronger. As much as I would like to claim this was all off the top of my head, it was really just my best explanation of the textbook definition.
The best part about your posts is you speak from a real world perspective. Allowing for the assumption of infinite specimens means all nine seasons can be run concurrently — with that said the first step in my explanation should really have used six properly selected plants of each strain, instead of six random seeds of each.
My goal wasn’t to destroy your inspiration, but to calm down your desire to stack the work to do like a lemmings ^^ My biggest fear is good potentials wasted in unrealistic breeding plans, it happend a lot and that’s the worse thing for the global genpool.
Don’t change your initial strategy if your feelings are good with it, adapt it to be reliable and to produce something finalized within 5 years. Just the exercise to write it down on a paper with decent timings (3 indoor seasons per year) + eventual worries : Take in count than in 1825 days, all days will not be 100% optimal and perfect. You can get pest, disease, doing a mistake with a mother etc … add 20-25% for the worries on the total time and you will have something very close to the reality. A breeder simply hate surprises in his breeding plan.
Thanks to all readers for their kind words, but also for their tolerance with my english ^^
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