Quick question: If I cross a 100% indica plant (a landrace) with a 70% sativa plant (30% indica), what would be the result as far as the percentage of indica/sativa in the resulting plant? I know that in real life, things aren’t that simple and there are different phenotypes within a generation and you never can be sure of the starting % of any given strain, but on paper (and in theory) what would the result be? Please show your math.
35%/65%, addition and division, 0+70%=70%, 100+30% = 130%, divide by 2, since mother/father, 70 / 2 = 35%, 130 / 2 = 65%
5 Likes
I got the same answer, but I did the math in a slightly different order.
1/2 x 100% ind : 0% sat parent(1) = 50% ind : 0% sat
1/2 x 30% ind : 70% sat parent(2) = 15% ind : 35% sat
Total 65% ind : 35% sat
However, you are correct that there is so much variation via dominant and recessive alleles that this math is not an accurate representation of what is really happening.
1 Like
The more seeds you actually sprout and grow, the more the sample will look like the math.
4 Likes
Ok makes sense. One more scenario just out of curiosity. Say you cross lowryder #2 (80% indica / 10% sativa / 10% ruderalis according to: Lowryder 2 Autoflowering (Zativo) :: Cannabis Strain Info) with a 70% sativa / 30% indica. What would that be?
80 + 30% = 110 → divide by 2 = 55% indica, 10 + 70% = 80% → divide by 2 = 40% sativa, 10 + 0% = 10% → divide by 2 = 5% ruderalis
So the cross would be 55% indica / 40% sativa / 5% ruderalis, correct?
That would be correct on a statistical level, i.e. overall over hundreds of crosses… as per each plant, you’ll usually get different genes that overpower others, kind of like punnet squares. The %'s will be correct, but if the genes adding to say Sativa % only come through dominant on the leaves, then it’s a bit misleading.
It’s an F1 so 3:1 ratio.
Synthetic version : 25% Hybrid+Indica if the sativa is dom in the X, 25% Hybrid+sativa if the indica is dom in the X.
This pattern can be only spotted with a minimal amount of seeds, i will say at least 50 seeds for stable modern hybrids. More if the project is more complex ofc (involving 3ways, landraces, BX etc …).
BUT without knowing the dominances in game, there is no theory possible to predict your outcome before it’s maded at least a first time. And it can slightly change depending on the specimen involved in the selection.
Sorry but there is no magic or maths involved in it, it’s just a mendelian pattern for heterosis.
2 Likes
Yeah I have to go read some books on the subject. Have you guys read the cannabis breeders bible or marijuana botany by Robert Clarke (or his new book)? Would you guys recommend any of these?
I’ll just read a book or two out of curiosity since it seems without absurdly high plant numbers (I just read Mendel worked with over 1000 pea plants a year and even 50 would be too much for me lol), I’d just be a pollen chucker no matter how much I read. Maybe with Canada federally legalizing cannabis soon some crazy breeding projects can begin and we’ll all benefit from their lax atmosphere.
1 Like
I don’t known the first but i recommend the second book to start.
But there is a little “misunderstanding” in your consideration about the number of specimens involved. I will try to remove the fog of war lol
About the number of specimens involved
Think about a market study. You have a product (the cross project) to push in a localized community (the twos strains). If you knock the door of only 10 persons that live in the same street, you will have more chances to be fooled on the intentions of the whole city than anything else. But you known that allready.
Problem : you can’t probe the opinion of 100 persons in a day.
Waiting after über to get the job done is a pretty strange strategy. Why don’t simply take a paper, a pen (for the tracking) then work ten day in a row to get your 100 opinions ? Today, computers, numeric cameras, tablets and so on … are cheap. And on softwares you have the choice of the king at the point to can develop your own more simply than in 70’s i can say ^^ At the point to can fully “automate” the process of selection with toys for kids (kinect).
50 specimens is a kind of universal number for all type of strains, i rather prefer 100 because i’m lazzy and it automatically create a natural percentage. yep.
The difference between the 10 row and 50 row is simply one thing : the control on what you’re doing. You will work more with statistics than anything else; and your “job” is to spot patterns in these statistics in using tools like mendelians laws but also your own methodologies.
Don’t give a fck about the lazzy pessimists than say all day than everything is impossible. It’s possible to keep the dices rolling even in a shoes box or in guerrilla spots and in the worst conditions. Your plants will always award you twice for your constancy, no mater what.
At the moment you throw the “hit and run” strategy in your toilet, everything is possible.
About the laws
Don’t have any hope on it. At the moment you start breeding the right way, you will become more and more addicted. So you will quickly overgrow your spaces. No one can resist, even the worst i’ve met. So even in cool places like Spain or Holland, you still an illegal no matter what. It’s a choice, like in life. Security or regrets.
Having fun in your little overgrown space stay less risky than producing weed for stoners if you’re enough smart …
About the fake hierarchy
This pollen chunck thing annoy me at a high level. It’s what was Overgrow V1, a fire pollen chunk place, and it’s what we try to revive here. Since 20 years soon, i’ve never met another place with so much high grade hybrids in circulation. Even in ultra private place mostly drived by established guys.
And this revival is not possible if all our potentials are destroyed by a shitty propaganda then they generate themselves.
Say hy to your males for me, and my best vibes for your projects and readings.
Yup ding ding, we have a winner!
You may find you have a fortuitous breeding pair who’s dominants complement each other and provide vigorous offspring. It may be you have a male that will combine well with mostly any female, it may be that the female combines well with mostly any male. You may find the dominants clash and you do not get great plants, no better than their parents at least.
If you google GCA and SCA (general and specific combining ability) it may help you get a better concept of what is going on, at least in that area.
2 Likes
I’m sorry, i find your statement totally irrational. I’m losing something in the translation i guess.
You known the dominance of a specimen over another specimen with a first hybrid maded, only. It’s exactly why i’ve answered this :
25% Hybrid+Indica if the sativa is dom in the X, 25% Hybrid+sativa if the indica is dom in the X.
In the context of this subject (the thread where we are), this is absolutely not the case and the guy ask if it exist a fully theoretical way to predict the outcome in bypassing the knowledge of the genetic potential of both strains. Wich is absolutely impossible, like you clearly explain it yourself. You will never find a “fortuitous breeding pair” in esoteric maths, and you will never be able to judge these combinations without the concrete proofs in hands : the seeds of the hybrid involved in the equation.
It may be you have a male that will combine well with mostly any female, it may be that the female combines well with mostly any male.
I can ear that for strategies using back-crossing programs. Outside it, if it happend in your projects you known that you have reached a point where your genpool (total of lines you maintain) is washed, and then you need fresh blood. Or to launch 3way/4way programs for them eventually.
Now, if the big picture of the strategy is to focus only on female’s selections in keeping only one male selected one time for good and for everything (because he do the job like “planned” most of the time), i can ear that too. The truth still in the bud, and at the moment your buds have higher standards than classics … all roads lead to Rome.
But you can’t reduce this strategy to a fate, it’s a choice from the start.