Keep in mind what was mentioned earlier. There is going to be input on this subject that may not align to your hypothesis. Further there will be input on the experiment, the design, and whether subsequent results will have merit and to what degree.
Valid and difficult counter arguments are not a problem. Attacks or demeaning posts are, flag them if they come up to help keep your experiment and surrounding discussion on track. There are opportunities to learn and respectfully debate on variety of levels.
The fact that the criticism over methodology and wether the chosen methodology of the “experiment” is being met by calling people haters or naysayers only further highlights explicit bias. The point of the scientific method is the exact opposite of that. To set things up in a manner to remove as many extraneous variables and biases as possible. And then repeat. And repeat. And repeat.
@AzSeaindooin420 its absolutely great that you have had some success with this method. If it works for you that’s totally cool. I’m all for what you have proposed to do here…….
However, what you have proposed to do here will not prove this methods accuracy. To call this an experiment is far fetched, to call it cursory data collection to see whether this hypothesis is worth further investigating would be a much more accurate representation of what has been proposed.
I’m not a scientist, but have great respect for the method. If this is something you feel that strongly about investigating, i would highly recommend studying by the scientific method and embrace the criticisms and use them to improve and build on your methodologies.
By pushing aside criticisms and call people naysayers is to push aside science(especially the peer review portion). Remove ego from it, use the scientific method, and present the findings.
I’m not trying to naysay, this is just like the 6th time I’ve seen this thread and pic in 20+ years and I’m trying to make the underlying results clear.
You can run a small(<100) sample set against the “perfect” seeds for male or “perfect” seeds for female. If you get even one plant of the opposite gender in those chosen seeds, then the entire theory isn’t sound at all.
Further, if the plants don’t come out 100% the chosen gender, then trying to say you may see a ~10% or whatever percent increase, by looking at the seed ahead of time, is impossible without running out hundreds of all the shapes and recording the results and comparing. Likely all from the same exact strain/parents, not across multiple lines.
Regardless, I’m definitely interested in your results.
Checking all the seeds from a feminized plant have the same concave bottom is probably the best way to see if its a correct way of determining if the data picture is correct…
Well this is getting way more complicated than the simple experiment it was suppose to be, the question for the experiment is “can I target a specific gender based on the guidelines provided” seeds haven’t even germinated and this thread is FULL of everyone calling bullshit, as far as Im concerned there’s not really ANY way I could have set this up any different that ANYONE would even agree that the results I get have any merit anyways or the experiment was set up in a proper manner that suits them
End of the day I’m taking random seeds from the seed vault,over many different cultivars and looking at the traits and making a hypothesis (educated guess) of what I think it’s gonna be based on what I visibly see, I can very well be wrong and that I’m fine with but again let me get some results to see if what I thought to be females and males actually were
I’ve mentioned countless times that I don’t expect 100% results nor have I made claims that the method is fool proof. But the end goal is to be able to “INCREASE THE LIKELYHOOD” of targeting females sifting through seed stock, if it’s a 50/50 shot picking em out and can increase to even 80/20 it’s still worth doin in my book
Popping seeds is a shot in the dark for gender, well what’s so wrong with trying to bring a flashlight to the party any beneficial gain is better than none at all
That’s the difficult part and is where there is tension.
What some folk are trying to convey is the difference between an experimental observation vs a design for statistical validity vs proving a hypothesis as true. All pieces have value and provide insight. Though, as you continue to move towards the right, the rigor required increases and it becomes exponentially more difficult to get all pieces in place and correct. Folk are trying to help in that understanding while at the same time trying to understand the goal.
And that part is my issue with the premise. There’s no way to tell it is actually giving you any appreciable increase of females without testing all the shapes and sizes and logging it.
Sometimes you pop a pack that’s 100% females, and sometimes its 100% males. Some strains are male heavy, and some are female heavy.
I think the problem lies in you have one foot in the pool of science with what you have proposed and some of the things you have said.
I stand by what I said, I fully support what you are trying to do, I just don’t think the findings of such a data collection exercise will PROVE anything at all other than whether more investigation is warranted or worth the time.
You presented this to the community, a cursory search of the countless threads that already exist on this subject would let you know that this hypothesis would come with criticism. Not all of the criticism in this thread has been of the productive nature, but a lot has. Most of this criticism has been shot down as being hate or nay saying when all it is is the community trying to do the same thing you proposed……investigate this properly to give the community some information that could prove valuable.
We have plenty of bro science and snake oil thrown at us on a regular basis. Those of us here criticizing the method being used, or what a certain data set means, or has the ability to prove, we want the same thing you claim to, good information and facts.
If it works for you, great. Works for a friend of yours great. Want to bring it to the community and make statements about proving something, you should embrace that criticism and take it as a sign the community cares and would appreciate this if it’s done right.
If it’s not done right it is just further perpetuating and lending more credence to the bro science of it all
It’s not hard to program it… The hard part is to make 10.000 hi-res photos with a magnifying glass and normalize them so that the input pics look roughly the same.
Ya I’m def seeing that, starting to consider pulling the plug on it since now I’m wondering if there’s a fine line between doing something positive and creating a shit storm and I’m just flirting with it.
I know what I have seen and accomplished with the method in the times I’ve used it and had the community in mind if I can share something beneficial and document whether there’s some truth to it or not but realistically being shoved in the direction of what’s the point and why bother since the group already has a concensus of the results before a single seed in the experiment has even popped. Doesn’t feel like any results I get is even gonna be worth a damn or make any wake as a trade secret aside for my own personal beliefs, which is fine as I intend to continue to sharpen up as a grower even if something seems silly to the rest of u. End of the day I’m gonna have a badass garden this year and that’s what’s most important anyways even if I wanted to try a silly experiment
I admire your enthusiasm for science. I don’t think it is bro science if you have had a fourth grade education and know how to make a hypothesis and figure out what happens next. With a big data set it should become more clear to you whether this is an old wives’ tale, or if the data is statistically disproportionate. Cool thread; I’m rooting for unbiased and informative results in your experiment.
The shit storm part is more along the lines of providing advice and tempering the resultant expectation. Folk really do want to help here though it may be too much to accomplish this go around. If your current experiment shows something that leans one way or another, then it can lead to proposals to increase rigor to chop away at.
The crowd sourcing idea is excellent as may gain a much larger sample set. On that though, the better that the experimental design is planned up-front, the more likely that sample set will increase.
Could you imagine if everyone stopped all experiments (scientific or not) just because some individuals thought their experiments were silly.
In the end who REALLY cares?
Do your thing!
If others don’t like it they can hit the ignore button and move on…
If they just can’t help themselves and tell you your wrong and your are doing it wrong I would suggest they step up to the plate and run what they believe to be a valid experiment. Put your Money where your fingers are ladies and gentleman… Talk is cheap…
Ya I guess I was trying to keep it simple as possible, take a handful of beans, pick out what is believed to be a female, pick out another thought to be a male and see if the hypothesis was correct within a good target range with 30 in each control. 100% isn’t realistic in this and know that going in but a high percentage is still a win to me
oh damn, i did not know that! super awesome! i’m based out of socal, so locally my friends and i will hit up malibu creek, holcomb, tramway, joshua tree. we’ll also occasionally venture out to bishop and red rocks. a few years back we were big into sport climbing, but nowadays it’s mostly bouldering. although to be honest, i’ve been slacking with my climbing since i’ve been working to get my first grow started. but now that things are setup and running, i can get back to the gym and start climbing again.
I do a mix of sport, and trad. No much bouldering though. My wife and I have established probably 150-200 pitches here in AZ (plus a few in CO). Probably 80% sport and 20% trad. Although for the past few years we have been doing mostly back-country, ground up, multi-pitch, which can be SLOW going, especially if any bolts are needed, as hand drilling is a bitch regardless, even more so on lead.
