I took a pristine male Ethos SUPER lemon Haze F6 and pollinated a purple pheno female of my own cross that I pheno hunted. So next grow I reversed a SLH F6 and pollinated a nice female F1 of the previous grow, and froze leftover fem pollen… Grew it out,harvested seeds, now feminized. Grew out a feminized plant and hit her with the leftover frozen pollen, also made feminized SLH seeds too BTW. So now I have collected my crossed hybrid and am currently growing them , now at 8 day old seedlings. Can these be considered stabilized?
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Are you getting consistent or close to consistent results with the offspring, and not noticing whatever undesirable traits that you bred out? Is there low phenotypic variation? If you pop 50-100 do they all seem mostly homogeneous?
The only thing that throws me off here is the selfing, I don’t speak for anyone but myself, nor do I claim to be any expert in anything and I will readily admit that in my time growing I have f’d up more strains than Ive successfully made…but I generally don’t even think of making anything feminized until I have already back crossed it and stabilized it. Maybe some with more knowledge on this than I could get better insight to ya…
I think, again, only personally here, because I like seeing everything in front of me rather than just believing what it should be, if I was you I would pop at least 50-100 of that batch and see what they do!
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I keep two cuttings for every mom and anything good I find will be selfed. A lot of people self first before doing anything else.
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Yeah, that makes sense. So in this instance would that count as stabilized from that point, S1, or would it require further work as if it was an F1? Wouldn’t it depend on what filial generation the clone was, or no? I’m still somewhat new to sending and haven’t use it in the breeding process myself aside from making feminized seed from mother’s/clones once stabilized. I’m also by no means claiming the way I do anything is the right way, hahaha.
@itza419 I’m a little bit behind on sleep today, I forgot to mention in that last post that that sounds like some straight 
you’re working with and would definitely be interested if you ever wanted to trade or
something;
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it doesn’t work the way you are thinking here.
You need to grow out a larger pool and look at the bigger picture it shows you.
Are the plants all the same or “very” close to the same for most traits?
Examples would be do they all share the same leaf expressions, structure, branch type. Do all the flowers look, taste and smell the same or very similar.
Stable to me means predictability in the seed lot. Can I pop a single fem seed and it is going to give me exactly what I expect it to give me in the checkboxes for all the things I listed above.
For a good example I would point to Tonygreen’s GG4 RIL or any of his Sour Bubble crosses.
One can pop any of those packs and the flavors are very predictable as is resin production, structure, and just overall representation of traits reinforced or as you say “stabilized” in the line.
Just doing the breeding doesn’t guarantee anything. The seed lot has to be grown out to prove out the work and see if it’s going in the directions you have hoped it would go.
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“Stabilized”? No. Uniform you mean? Maybe… but only way to tell is to grow em… all 
F1 … possibly F2, but your ”…pollinated a purple female of my own cross” throws me off
F1
Ah, still an F1
No.
Edit: i like brain teasers & puzzles 
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I synthetize :
- male SLH F6 x purple F1 => F1 SLH/P
- sprayed SLH/P F1 female on purple F1 female = it’s a BX1 then, but fem
- SLH/P BX1 fem x SLH/P F1 sprayed = it’s a BX2, but on the opposite side this time, and fem again.
I sincerely wish you fabulous results, but it’s not a stabilization at all. A simple BX3 on this purple clone will give you a (genetically) stable line in less time that the strategy described, even if the goals of the operation are quite unclear to read ^^
lambchopedd is right to highlight that tagging something genetically stable is not the same thing that offering an instant uniformity that can’t last.
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I consider consistently getting a range of phenos that show up for everyone stable as long as it dont hermie
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It’s purely “technical” but it’s a constructive behavior to consider the sexual stability independently. You can cross the path of a stable landrace that herm badly … it’s vicious. And even more afterward, in this specific case.
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I am most likely going to grow these out and see if i get twins. lol. i have 2 at the moment.
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Nice conversation breeder nerds!
Here’s a technical question for you folks to chew on.
I have read and agree with the opinion that a “Selfing” is technically a genetic back cross and The offspring could accurately be described as either an S1, or a “Selfed BX1.”
If the selfed pollen from the female parent were used to pollinate a daughter plant from the S1 generation it would technically be a back cross, BX2.
@Tonygreen seemed to adopt this line of reasoning in favor of excluding the Y chromosome to speed up homozygosity.
What say ye OG Breeders?
-Grouchy 
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I personally say no — to me that’s just an F1
You crossed two things that are A. Different & B. Not of the same generation, thus making something new
If someone told me they did this hypothetical my only question would be “why”. The only benefit I can guess would be to intentionally hunt for double-recessive traits…
But idk
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Try to write the things in neat diagrams with the whole sequence, it help overall.
I’m not sure I’ve well decrypted your thing, but it give an idea. I’ve added the “usual business” on which is built a shit ton of initial lines we are recycling and watering down in loop today.
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this topic can get real deep real fast hehehe
I think with Tonygreen’s work and I am only spitballing here… When he (they, we must never forget Dansbuds part) started down the Gorilla Bubble path, the Sour Bubble was already a well worked line… stable or homozygeous(?) for many traits it was well known for. This provided the building blocks and the tools for selection. The selfing didn;t take place until after the BX5 from what I remember but could be wrong.
I have only just gone down the path of reversing females with STS but was waiting until I found the right plant and have grown it for a few years to become familiar with it and I know it’s traits intimately now. I also proved out it’s sexual stability through stress regimens and am confident it is a worthy clone to go forward with and use in it’s reversed pollen state.
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Fair enough @lambchopedd, but consider this…
- In an S1 pollination, only the female X chromosomes are expressed, no Y Chroms are involved. The parents aren’t as “different” as F1’s
- An S1 pollination is still Sexual reproduction, (as opposed to cloning, which is Asexual), so there are ample opportunities for recessive genes to express themselves. And they do.
- Backcrossing with pollen from the P1 plant (even if it is Selfed) is by definition a “Recombinant” BX cross.
- Since each BX is a sexual reproduction, some recessives will emerge and so each generation is a pheno hunt, narrowing down on some traits desirable to a discerning breeder. Each gen you get to select a winner.
I wish @Tonygreen and I were buddies so he could clarify, but I think he was pretty clear that he saw back crossing as a fast and effective route to stability e.g. homozygosity on traits of interest.
Here’s a quote:
“Self, select the winner, self the winner and repeat.
Keep a cut of your mom each round and run her next to her progeny in a line, then you can see what you need to see.
Then you are onto something. Near perfect homozygosity by s4. Then you have something all your own that nobody has. Can do this in just one year if you are focused.”
For the record @SHSC-1, we’re just pretending to be botanists here. I realize this is a real rabbit hole, but “recombinating” the genetics of a beloved plant, is how Tony crafted GG#4 RIL.
Humbly Submitted, (cause I’m no expert!)
-Grouchy 
PS Help “Mr. Wizard” (@ReikoX)…
BX2 “Mysto Monster” 
(just sampled!)
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That’s fair too.
I think what I disagree with is denoting a “backcross” as anything other than an F1. I understand what you @GrouchyOldMan and others are saying. But as we all know, a back cross is simply a breeding tool to try to get a certain trait(s) to appear more frequently in the progeny. But every time you make a BX, you’re making something “new”; i.e a new first generation — amiright?
I do agree however with using P1 pollen (for ex.) to recombine genes. But by definition, doesn’t a recombinant line need to come from multiple sources?
Because in the case of OPs project, there’s no new material all the alleles are already there. I see this less as “recombinant” than I see it as simply shuffling the deck. Maybe Tony will agree… maybe not. But what I do know is that Tonys work alone wasnt considered recombinant until he combined it with Mycos work.
tldr — what this sounds like to me is OP is simply making s1 x s1 hybrids ANDDD trying to breed for traits… and there’s nothing wrong with that!
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You are totally right about that @lambchopedd, but that cross is about half as “New” a next generation as an F1, combining two genotypes.
S1 is “Recombining” X chromosomes. It is sexual reproduction, but with only one set of gametes, the female side.
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It’s the simplified definition of a mutation with cannabis. Not related with the case exposed by itza419.
So, you’re saying that it’s impossible to trigger the fems in herms, right ?
Because they don’t contain the necessary genetic material to produce male’s flowers ?
^^
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Greetings @fuel,
That ^^ is not what I am saying, but I think I see how you might interpret it as such.
If the female parent plant has a recessive intersex trait it can appear in the offspring seeds from an S1 pollination. I’ve seen this happen and watched it disappear in subsequent BX generations when I chose the non-intersex offspring seeds for the next gen.
The point being that both S1 and BX pollinations allow the expression of recessive traits in the parent plant and offer the breeder an opportunity to choose which offspring phenotypes to carry forward. At least that’s how I understand it and have seen it in my own projects.
My interest is in the “Recombination” of a genotype through repeated inbreeding to create stable feminized seeds from a prized female in order to create a unique breeding platform for F1 crosses.
@itza419’s question is really about stability and that is only answered by the seeds themselves as they are grown out multiple times, as other’s have said above.
Regards,
-Grouchy
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