Landraces and heirloom (Part 1)

@US3RNAM3 yes, had to look again, i mixed these two old Seedbanks Names up.

I remember the name Afropips form old Days when i started reseraching, and now that you mention an “unlogic”, i recall there was African Seeds aswell. ( african seeds is online again, but was defunct for years, thats why i forgot)

So, that means: everything i said stays to an unknown degree the same: African Seed Company were the Source for ACE Malawi, ACE got a Clone from it, and crossed to another Line or Hbrid… (wich might explain why one of 4 ACE Malawis tested pure. it could been the crossing partner… or any other outcross, Hybrid is possible. i said it all allready…)
It would only change in meaning if everyone back then shouted around, “African Seeds are Hybrid”… i cant remeber wether or not folks shouted around.

So, yeah, i said it slightly wrong, and dint wanna falsely associate Afropips with Afriacn Seeds, stuff is just so long ago, i didnt realise its 2 companys.

but waht i wanted to say, is that i find many lines i googled from ACE were around, and known to collectors. or i also wanted to say, that in this very case it was already a fat ass landrace-tagged Line that they used
Those posts took me asmost 2 working days , you know… tired thanks for the compliment if it was one, thanks guys. peace

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That’s an interesting thought. In my mind theoretically DNA should show the makeup regardless of what it is and what the plant looks like in the end is just what genes are dominantly expressed. Kind of like we will all test for having some Neanderthal DNA despite looking completely differently today. Doesn’t matter what the person looks like or what ethnicity they are, neanderthal will still show up most of the time

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i looked at Skunk no 1 from different sources with a identical reading almost. Go figure,

however, i think different selections can possibly show diffferent. i mean if i have a afghani inclusion, i select for it, it might show…

Of corse Phenos would show, but less then selecting for a Pheno. i found the Skunk no1 interesting…

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I think what Romanoweed is always preaching is that we can’t judge a book by its cover which certainly speaks truth. However, what I’m trying to Ram through that thick head of his(:rofl:… I’ll include myself under that thick-headed category my friend) is that once you have “read” those books( grown the landraces )we are given clues that help judge whether the words were the same or not in each book so to speak.
I have had to reframe the image of landrace that was in my mind 5 years ago. The more I learn the less I know and nothing is black and white. The fact is, we still don’t even know how long it takes for a landrace to develop, there are only theories. Until we know which landraces came from where we won’t be able to tell how a climate changes plants. For instance let us suppose that Panama Red is in fact some old Afghan strain. Sounds ridiculous but it’s not out of the realm of possibility. It would certainly help explain the rich cannabinoids that are normally found in Afghan land races and others from the Middle East and South Asia. And now that I have grown an Afghan sativa my mind is completely screwed up. I had always thought I could spot hybridization based on plants that look like Hindu Kush. But, the old Afghan sativas, which would be the culprit for any hybridization with Afghan strains prior to the 70s and perhaps afterwards, are a completely different animal. I’m now even thinking the Molokai Frost heirloom could be an old Afghan sativa. Everything about it matches.
Sometimes I wish I could travel back in time to when I knew everything😁

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Without comment here are

3 Ace Panama Red from Phylos -

Coastal - Panama Red, Colombia Red and Angola

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Lol that’s funny you mentioned Afghan sativas because that’s exactly the picture I posted from the Nangarhar Afghani from the Tora Bora region.
Compliments from Snowhigh. Who knows cannabis beans have been traded since the beginning, and probably isn’t a true Landrace strain originated from any region except Russias, I say that because like you say what if the Spanish obtained Afghan genetics from the Silk Road trading routs and brought them to the new world where they have been every since?

My apologies it just seems like the guy always wants to argue and comes off very rude all the time. I enjoy reading what you and others have to say in this thread, it seems like he’s always trying to argue “against “ instead of agreeing.

Also because of you and a few others I have bought the book “ Marijuana Botany” by RCC. Also if you know of any other landrace or good reads I would be open due to be not wanting to pollute the genetics I have obtained. :pray:t2:

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Not a complete list by any means - just an older one that I use as a reference -

Pacific area

  • Philippines Sagada sativa
  • Papuasia New Guinea sativa
  • Philippines Kalinga sativa

South East Asia area

  • Continental Thai sativa
  • Dutch Thai Brick sativa
  • Thai highland Chiang Mai sativa
  • Thai lowland Koh Samui sativa
  • Thai lowland Koh Samui II sativa
  • Paï Thai sativa
  • Chinese Sichuan indica
  • Yunnan Chinese sativa
  • Phnom Penh Cambodia sativa
  • Cambodian sativa

India and Himalayan area

  • Indian Mumbai mithai sativa
  • Nepalese sativa / indica
  • Malana shepperd sativa
  • Bangladesh sativa
  • Sri Lanka sativa

Pakistani and Afghan area

  • Hunza indica
  • Afghan Anthaeus indica
  • Mazar I shariff indica
  • Purple yarkhun indica

African area

  • Swazi Rooi Bart sativa
  • Ivory Coast sativa
  • Ethiopian highland sativa
  • African goblin sativa
  • Malawi gold sativa
  • Ghana sativa
  • Burkina sativa
  • Ghana Accra skunk sativa
  • Zamal St Anne sativa
  • Comoros and Mayotte sativa

Maghreb area

  • Egyptian Sinai indica
  • Maroccan II indica
  • Ketama Morocco sativa

South and Central America area

  • Panama Red - CBC sativa
  • Dr Greenhumb’s Acapulco Gold sativa
  • Chiappas Mexican sativa
  • BSC Colombian Santa Marta gold indica
  • Oaxacan sativa
  • Brazilian Red sativa
  • Amarillo sativa
  • Honduras sativa

Antillas area

  • Jamaican Blue Mountain sativa
  • West Indies Fil Rouge sativa

and :

Manga Rosa
Santa Marta Gold
Opossum # 1 ( smg x acapulco / deepchunk )
Puna Budder
Highland Oaxaca Gold
Acapulco Gold
Brasilian Green
Punto Rojo
Aracaju Red
Burmese ( different from reeferman or visc )
Greenenes cherry bomb
Cochabamba ( bolivian )
Angola Red

Xmas 2007
Kona Gold
Brasilian Lemon
Colombian Black
Foxtail Sativa
Brasilian Black ( bengala )
Brasilian Gold
Oaxacan Pelo Rojo

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Ace has never realy claimed there Panama is pure Panama red , that’s why I never acquired it from them , they list it as several sativas from Columbia and Panama mixed together. There are a few shorter fat cola plants like the lemon verde (mango niche) that could be contributing to its structure.
The coastal seeds Panama Red is most likely the same Panama red that came over in the late seventies and has been preserved in NorCal.
Phylos results for landrace are worthless and should not be used as any reference in regards to the legitimacy of strains.
Landraces often have cbd heavy phenotypes
Landraces often have close ties to what we call hemp
Phylos decided what those bases are comprised off and did it based of samples sent in , the whole control group is flawed.
Phylos is entertainment at based based on science and is very misleading in regards to there capabilities

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@royal thank you! nice to speak about something more physical than anekdotes. not that anekdotes are wrong to talk about. but like shown: even mustafunk approved that one of the malawi lines was a Line in circualtion. Mustafunk who dislikes Ace.

also kaikis line wich is pretty fat ass plant, probably 75 percent as fat as the Panama ACE speaks for ahmm…?

again, it points thowards that ACE relases lines they didnt know for certain if the were hybredized. (ITS NOT A CLAIM THAT THEY DIDNT KNOW; ITS NOT A CLAIM THE DIDNT SNEAK INTO AN INDICA; HOWEVER; SO MANY LINES ARE KNOWN IN COLLECTORS CIRCLES; IT BECOMES ACTUALLY MORE CLEAR WITH SINGLE LINES, EG. LINES THAT ARE JUST MADE FROM ONE LINE; LIKE; WHATEVER ACEs THAI CHIAN MAI; and what not)

i can hypothize that Kaiks words that much is skunked up in ACE cataloge, are kind of confusing? (atleast 3rd party people said that he said that)

i can also hypothize that, like already all said, that Mustafunks words that Snowhighs Vietblack beeing outcrossed, is confusing. i mean freakers ball reproduced it, they love landraces, its a line well spread, the snowhigh vietblack. never seen the INDICA-Afghani outcross theories very etablished on this one…

Again, dont make it into: ROMANO TRIES TO SAY; ALL ACE STUFF IS PURE .

Infact, i am never claiming, atleast most often, i am showing evidential things, and i could have done longer, but its taking all my time and energy, i was getting pohysically sick writing it.

The point i try to etablish is, and stays weather or not ACE outcrosses most stuff with Indica (besides 4 Lines). A claim that was made by someone people, or implied…

And based on something more substential , more physical, like similarities to cursating Collectors lines, i can specualte that ACE did simply use lines cursating as “Landrace”, atleast often.

I never claimed anything really, probably i forgot an “imho, no claim” one two times. but you see, the discussion is so ultra long, my time energy is limted, and i think people couldnt even read it anymore . So, the implication that i claim anythign is a bit unaccurate. atleast thats my subjective oppinion. no claim, stay open minded.

neither do i wanna say with this post that i “agree” stuff is hyredized. As one working for myselve a bit with scientific things , my first priority is just to question things. in therms of phylos, i dont just read skunk, oh its skunk, i also dont read “inclusion”, oh its stepping out the norm, this is just the highest priority i have in science that i dont know. NEITHER do i dislike any assumtions, i like hypothesis, but hypothesis can need reasons sometimes, otherwise its more a theory. So i actually presented a reason why “skunk-cloud” in phylos could mean hybridness/afghani inclusions, it was that i said that most inclusion in Thai are hemp. and i said it matches with a certain idea of individal differences between the fatter Thai Plants and fatter Mexican Plants we seen after the 80s.
In Mexico i assumed it was more a afghani thing than in Thailand, and i assumed this before i read phylos. And i said it kinda show in the readings of phylos, with it i gave the idea that skunk means kindof hybridness/afghani inclusions a certain weight. So you see, i already hypothized…
In your enimys direction. (in lack of better words, how is this in english: opposition?).

Anyway, i love jow @US3RNAM3 pointed critical thoughts, i like critism!

so cool

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no, i dint mean you are responsible, in phylosopy everything is me. youre not guilty. youre not even possible to be guilty. thats phylosphy.

no claim! just my oppinion.

I was getting sick , well just because im not my perfect version of myselve probably. i dunno. so . peace.

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Well I hope you feel better !

And again my apologies/ please forgive me. I’m not myself lately either.

This life is tough sometimes.

Take care mate.

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That red dot is quite a bit different to the one franco found and secured. Franco’s looked like a proper old school red dot even though he found it on the field in more modern times.

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however, i think different selections can possibly show diffrent.

This is what I was thinking. Individual plants from one strain going by the phenotype should show differences going by phylos’s method of classifying plants.

With regards to the skunk#1 have you checked to see how the original 89 exodus cheese cutting comes up against skunk#1 ? Id be interested to see that. Also I find interesting is white widow/black widow shows to be afghan kush (more sothe og’s) reletad with a bit of skunk and south american and kerlan seem to be furthest away.

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thats where you are probably just looking at leaveshapes.

I can hypothize that every Genetic, collected later, closer to the the 70s. (in this case Kaikis Punto Rojo was collected in 2000), is better.

Further, we can also read the Phylos Measurements, wich indicate that Indian Landrace Exchanges Strains collected in 2020, are pure , i didnt say it prooves it, but indicates it, wich is always better.

SO, now comes the point :
-older is better
-thinleaved is better

so, wich one is really the winner?

And there comes my Experience. Long ago, i smoked the most psychedelic weed in my live, eventually on earth (there were multiple strains on that level, but mine was on that level, that i can not possibly imagine to be exceeded really)-

So, 20 years later i didnt know what it was, but i hunted it. i found that only strains from the 70s did give these effects.

Thats where my reason to defend ACE comes in.
ITs that, in my view, neither thinleaved 2020 Strains, nor Fatleaved older collections would likely bring you that Level of pure 70s Tripweed that i had.

Thats what i seemed to hear from unbelevable long hunts, reading unbelevable amounts of smokerports…

I would therefore say, that ACE is overall (it depends on the individual strain they sell) but overall a Choce as good as Indian Landrae Exchange or as Realseedcomp…
THATS MY OPPINING, not based on Books, its looking for the Smokereports that come the closest to what i once smoked.

If you get yourselve a Oldtimershaze, wich may ormay not be, well , its a haze… but this is one of the interesting strains on offer to date from Ace. per example.
ITs collected in 70s. i advice very very few strains, so dont be misslead to think the rest is shit.
so, yeah… older collected counts… something in my oppinion musta have changed, even if your 2020 Thai, Indian or whatever is thinleaved as fuck… in my oppinion, i never ever found a Triipreport like the ones from the 70s… so, this point always nobody talks about , that somethign changed, even in the this leaved strains…

and of corse on the other hand ACEs stuff might have inclusions, so, what is better, is also bit a question of taste IMHO. its just that people only speak about the thinnes… but again. today, even the thinnest strain has not produced flight-experiences… so… the 70s stuff did! so what happend.
hell, i recall vaguely , even a 10 weeker durban mad a person hallucinate, he said he sap persons so real that he didnt beleive it… this guy made an approprita imprssion and not much fuss about it. just a short comment… so, based on my observations, there is nothing wrong trying ACE, instead the ole Realseedcompany, or whatever with strains collected very recently…

I hope this makes you guys understand why i defend some stuff, and ideas, because i have experience with the real stuff, i have spent unbelevable rsearch, as you see i write unlimited long posts,

Oh i forgot, the feeling that older collected strains often have, and more modern collected are missing is what i describe as depth.

the feeling that modern collected but thinleaved strains have, is a bodyless high…
i wished we still had the old 70s Strains with zero body, PLUS depth.

Som thats why i dont particullary care for francos 2020 collected punto rojo. its anyway not the same.

It all comes down to taste. some people want uphigh no matter what, some want depth of older collections , in no way do i wanna tell people whats better, i just mentioned what i personally preffere. and bla bla …
peace, by and goodnight.

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ACE Seeds:
With Vietblack x Meaothai, they won my heart, with GN Thaistick aswell, with Oldtimershaze they have me interested, with Thai Chiang Mai they have me entertained, with their defunct Honduras they have me delighted about the pink hairs.

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because they have a good thinleave- but old collected Ratio.

Its not just the leaf shape. The one franco found is a pure stretchy sativa type. It gives out some phenos similar to the Colombian black gage green put out that flower 30 weeks. Its a wild sativa. They released it in something called cloudwalker wich I think only carries a third of the red dot they have, but even then if you look through the seeds you can still find some crazy red dot phenotypes that are still way more wild than the red dot pictured above.

Are there any books that discuss the landraces? I recently read “The African roots of Marijuana” and found it interesting that African cannabis is influenced by Asian genetics. Searching the internet, there seems to be no books dedicated to only landraces.

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The one that Snowhigh is working on, read that, thanks.

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ill anwser later. pause for now