On the subject of rks…
This is stated by Nevil:
"If u take an afgS and cross it with an afgT you’ll find wat you’re looking for…soon or later throw backs will pop up. Meaning if u cross the devil with ASH or devil with nordle you’ll find it."
…
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Sounds like it might not be a dominant trait at that point
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In my experience growing out the Original Haze seeds that I got from Sam, there is a very wide range of scents, flavors and overall growth characteristics.
Sam told me that he wanted to keep the Original Haze as is as much as possible, and he did so by remaking seeds through open pollinating thousands of plants of Original Haze together in his greenhouses. Sam has always said that Original Haze is great breeding material because of its diversity and because it is so potent. But because of the genetic diversity, you’ve got to be willing to go through a lot of plants to find one you really love.
One of the reasons I was so keen on getting Original Haze seeds from Sam, was because I knew the Original Haze he had was open pollinated and would contain the most amount of genetic diversity.
The Original Haze seeds that I will be selling in 2020, are also open pollinated in my greenhouse, as I am simply making more seeds of Original Haze the way he told me would work best.
I’m afraid that a lot of the other seed companies are selecting single females or males, to remake seeds, and in doing so, they are limiting the scope of genetics that pass on to their seed buyers.
At same same time he was saving Haze as an IBL, Sam was also selecting both males and females from the Haze family for his own breeding of Haze with his many other varieties. I listed some of the crosses he gave me above.
I really can’t speak on Old Timers seeds, I have not grown them, and I do not know that person, and I have no idea what they are working with. Personally, I think that all cannabis is good Cannabis, It just depends on your mood. I’m sure you’re going to find a lot of really wonderful plants to enjoy in his offerings.
Unlike some people on this forum, I’m not going to jump to conclusions about people that I don’t know.
I will also add this:
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Hey I hope that all is well. I will be honest in that I had some feelings about you even though I don’t know you and that is totally unfair to you as a person. I said some things to you on social media and I want to apologize publicly. I apologize Mr McCormick. I assumed that you were some guy trying to fool me. That is not something I would want done to me. I read this and felt convicted that I would not want to be treated in the same way. I can see that you do love this culture and plant. I wish you nothing but the best and much success to you in all of your endeavors. Blessings
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The truth from Sam the Skunkman and High Times? That will be the day. Sam Selezney is also an alias and not his real name either. As are a half dozen other aliases. Like his Santa Cruz street name Jingles. The Sacred Seeds cards you post here were published after the fact. Retro BS layered on top of retro BS. I would love to see any hard evidence of Sacred Seeds having existed in Santa Cruz in the 1970s. I have never found any. Nor has anyone else that I know, save for some fake news detective in Holland. No busts by the county sheriff’s office or the DEA, no news articles of any of the people involved with Sacred Seeds. No Sacred Seeds collective formed after WWII in Santa Cruz. No one I knew there heard of either Sacred Seeds or Haze. No one. No nothing. I lived around there for 30 some odd years back in the 60s through the 90s.
According to Ed Rosenthal, Haze was originally a Mexican and Colombian cross, then a recross or back cross with Colombian. Dunno why you would cross a Colombian x Colombian. The issue was with the late blooming of Colombian, and hence the need to breed it with and early finishing Mexican. I never met Nevil. He and I shared the same opinion about Watson though from across the pond. He was not the breeder he claimed to be. You can read Nevil’s posts about his dealings with Watson online. Shantibaba (ooooh, another weed alias!) is gathering up Nevil’s letters to post online. If you want the truth about what transpired in Holland, that will be a good place to look. Or posts made by Old Ed Halloway. Old Ed was the guy that sent Watson the money to fly to Holland. As for the Haze Bros breeding Haze back in 1969? Let me see. They were not really brothers. Then they not really named Haze. More aliases! According to your posts, Haze was really bred by one surfer dude? Did I get that right? A string of tall ever changing tales there, senor.
I still think you are just trying to make a buck off of Nevil’s passing on an over hyped strain. I also think that Sam sold out to the DEA in Holland. He cut a deal with the DEA there.The same US Drug Enforcement Agency that will use any means and methods to undermine the growing, transport and sales of marijuana, worldwide. IMO, that does not make him a saint. Or his stories any more true.
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I see the high and mighties have joined the thread. Time to leave before the dick swinging really gets out of hand.
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You are just spreading misinformation.
Again, I have nothing to do with HT.
FYI - Sam the Skunkman was Jingles in SC, and guess what - he used Jingles backwards - So it was Sam Selgnij, not whatever you are spewing as you clearly have little bits of hearsay, but you can not see the real picture.
You do not know any of these people, yet you speak like you have such authority when you were not there, and you have no firsthand knowledge.
I have known Ed Rosenthal since 1994, HBU?
Old Ed Holloway has never made a post on the internet, he turned 80 in 1996, and was not using the internet before he passed away; you are just making crap up.
Also, Old Ed did not send the money to Sam, it was Wernard and Michael, but what do I know, I have only known these people since the early 90’s, HBU? Have you ever been invited to Legends? Prob not. And BTW, I had a key to Wernard’s Positronics in 1996, and an office with Old Ed, HBU?
Wernard and I in Amsterdam:
No shat that G (the breeder and grower) and R.L. (a grower, seller and poster maker) of Haze were not really brothers - I never said they were and I do not see anyone else saying it either. The guys who became known as the Haze Brothers were actually the guys smuggling the Haze to the East Coast, but what the hell do I know.
I have known Scotty Blakey aka; Shantibaba since 1994, how long have you known him? And FYI, Scotty and Nevil were not on the best of terms in the end, and if Scotty is going to continue to push that BS about Sam and the DEA, after reading the court documents about Cogo, then he knows he is lying about Sam and that is f-ed up.
And FYI: At first in 1985 and 1986, Nevil was selling Sam’s Skunk No.1 seeds and buying them off of Sam, but when Nevil realized that Skunk was a true IBL, he started making Sam’s seeds himself and stopped paying Sam, which caused bad blood between them.
Now I don’t know about you, but if a whiskey distillery was making whiskey, and suddenly Jack Daniels showed up with his No.7 whiskey recipe, I don’t think it would be fair for the whiskey distillery to only pay him for the first couple years and then start knocking off his whiskey recipe and tell ol’ Jack to go to hell; I don’t think that would fly in court these days. But back then, it was easy to take advantage of other Cannabis people because we had no recourse, so guys like Nevil, got away with knocking off Sam, and I don’t think it’s right.
And FYI, for a long time Nevil did not even know it was Raymond Anthony Cogo, his own seed sender in the US, who turned him in, as it was from June of 1989, till Raymond Anthony Cogo gave his affidavit in January of 1994, that the DEA was hiding him as the informant, because the case was sealed until 2003, when Nevil’s case was finally dropped.
But until his case was dropped in 2003, and the documents became public, Nevil did not really know who turned him in, and for a while, he was blaming Sam, which was baseless BS.
I received the court documents below from a guy in Colorado named Adam, who was arguing with me about Sam being a DEA agent and all the BS (which like you, he initially believed) that Nevil was saying before Nevil really knew who turned him in. Well, Adam went on pacer.gov and pulled the court documents to Nevil’s case and then after reading them, he wrote me and apologized for spreading rumors about Sam, when it was clearly this guy Raymond Anthony Cogo who was working with the DEA and not Sam.
I am attaching the documents right here, read them for yourself. There is no Sam the Skunkman, or David Watson mentioned anywhere in the filings against Nevil.
Again, the truth ruins the story, but oh well, let the truth me known.
For the record, I also knew Mario Lapp, from the days I lived in Amsterdam, he has since passed away, but was responsible for spreading the misinformation with Nevil about Watson being DEA, which was total baseless BS, and was just made up by jealous Dutch seed merchants who did not understand the complexity of what Watson and Clarke were doing in the Netherlands. I know that Mario Lapp and Nevil had no freaking clue what Hortapharm was all about in 1995/1996, I sat in on conversations with Mario when he was trying to figure out how two Americans came to the Netherlands and got a license to grow cannabis when no such licenses were being issued to any Dutchman (which was what was pissing off the Dutch seed merchants).
Had those Dutch seed merchants actually understood medical cannabis, which they waaaaaaay way way did not, they too would have been able to apply for license to research cannabinoids, but the Dutch seed merchants were like ants standing next to a skyscraper when looking up at Watson and Clarke, unable to comprehend what was going on in the penthouse.
I know how daft the Dutch cannabis seed makers and coffeeshop owners were to medical cannabis, as I was with Wernard when he started putting together the Medi-Wiet program, to educate the other coffee shop owners about the advancements in medical cannabis, and sadly, most of the information about medical cannabis that Wernard presented fell on deaf ears to the other coffeeshop owners at the BCD, (the Dutch coffeeshop union) meeting, and that was winter of 1996! Many coffee shop owners and seed merchants who I was friends with, still though my medical prescription was just an excuse to smoke weed. Like I said, ants next to a skyscraper.
For those who don’t know, Watson and Clarke started the world’s first cannabis pharmaceutical company; Hortapharm B.V.; and their company was the first legally registered cannabis cultivation company in the Netherlands. Haters will hate, but their goal was to make generic THC that would be on the market as a cheaper version of Marinol. Their work, from; Marijuana Botany, to Hemp Diseases and Pests, to the International Hemp Association, to HASHISH!, to Cannabis: Evolution and Ethnobotany, has been some of the most useful information offered to the cannabis cultivation community. To say that the DEA would allow their agents to publish such incredible information that was positive about cannabis, in the face of the millions of dollars they were spending in propaganda against cannabis, is just downright stupid.
Please put down the Kool-Aid and pick up one of the books I just mentioned, the last one might be a little heavy for you considering it took Clarke and friends 17 years to write and consists of 350,000 words, and was published by the California University press of Berkeley, but give it a try, if you love cannabis, you’ll love their work, I just hope it’s not too expensive for you, because it does cost more than $20 of book.
If you really want to know what happened to Nevil, instead of just gossiping about people you don’t even know, read the two indictments and the affidavit of the witness:
The rat/snitch Raymond Anthony Cogo, who turned in Nevil and started Operation Green Merchant:
1994 Affidavit of Anthony Ray Cogo Nevil Snitch.pdf (2.3 MB)
The 1990 Indictment:
1990 Affidavit of Prosecutor.pdf (589.6 KB)
The 1994 Indictment:
1994 Affidavit of Prosecutor.pdf (410.7 KB)
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Thank you - I appreciate the kindness.
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You should see me with a sickle! lol
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Well damn Todd thanks again for another daily dose of history, I’m loving this thread 
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This seems to really conflict with the notion that @ToddMcC doesn’t care what other people think or say. 
What I see is a lot of association & not much demonstration. It seems like leveraging the reputations of other people to verify one’s own. My initial & persistent critique is selling untested F1 hybrids, aka ‘testers’, usually given away freely. The timing may be coincidental.
I find it baffling that grown adults send money to Zimbabwean princes. Posting personal information on the inter-web is a mistake made by children and geriatrics. Many other people have figured this one out. Like your buddy Sam. Why doesn’t he visit the US again? Particularly sunny California? 
While your postings an photos are self-evident your words, manner, & tone are contrary to what you’re demanding: respect.
But you don’t care, right? Which is it? 
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Laughable, Mr McC. I did meet several of these characters mentioned in California back in the 1970s. Way before anyone did anything in Holland. I know and knew several early breeders in California and Hawaii. As for Watson? I keep digging for Watson stuff in Santa Cruz. He never seems to have existed. I cannot corroborate anything that he claims happened here. Nor does anyone remember any of what he claims around here. Quite the opposite. What Watson posts is the polar opposite of my experiences living in California.
As for Clarke, he was on the board at Phylos Bioscience up in Portland. He has since resigned, They completely betrayed the trust of many at the Open Cannabis Project. You portray Watson and Clarke as saints. Contrary to your statement, stuff written by Old Ed was posted online about Watson and Clarke. Or it was. In Dutch and some in English. I have hard copies. He was shocked at the scale and speed that Watson and Clarke took things. His words, not mine.
I own all of these books you mention. Plus many many more. Like the King of Nepal, Weed and the Bandit of Kabul I/II. I have a signed copy of the second of that series from Jerry Beisler. Many have different things to say about these issues. I have been collecting books about cannabis since I started hanging out on Telegraph Ave in Berkeley and on Pacific Ave in Santa Cruz in the late 1960s. At the same time I was living the pot scene. The existing books on cannabis are becoming obsolete. Research is disproving many things printed earlier about cannabis, especially genetics and migration and trade patterns.
I have nothing to lose in this argument, BTW. I do not peddle seeds, so I do not need to spin tall tales about them. I do not even have a dog in this fight. You have what Watson told you, and some after the fact photos and a lot of stuff from Holland in the later 1980s. Meanwhile I cannot corroborate anything that you or Watson claims locally in the central coast of California. Watson had some seeds that he took to Holland. So what? Everyone had seeds then. They were completely worthless. All bag weed had seeds. Early sinsemilla had seeds. Thai sticks had seeds. Watson claims that he had to go through an entire kilo of Thai sticks to find 2 or 3 seeds. The Thai sticks that I bought had a seed or two on pretty much every one of them. By the stick or by the pound. I still have 50 of those skinny Thai stick seeds. According to Watson, I would have had to go through what, 25 keys to get these seeds? Just an example of his contradicting tales.
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Haven’t lived in the 70’s I don’t have probably much to add to this topic… but…
There is some inconsistency… I’d start by applying your own criteria to yourself… (btw it will be probably very hard to prove something that happened 40 years ago)…
My feeling is that @ToddMcC is trying to be patient with explaining facts… What about changing the approach and stop attacking him, @PanchoVilla?
Historical info can be very valuable for future generations… so why spoil it with some rudeness and personal attacks… Don’t make it a #sharks-tank topic, please…
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There is alot disagreement about Dave aka sam aka jingles aka dr frankenbean. It’s hard to say what’s true and what isent but I will say I have read everything on the subject I can find and alot dosent seem to add up. Dave has chimed in about this alot on other forums, Dave has stated he was the sole founder and operator of sacred seeds, he has also stated he wasent even in the states when the bust happend. If he was sacred seeds but wasent here then who got busted. I’ve seen him post that it was a made up company and non of the story ever happend. He has stated different dates for when the haze was created. His statements in regards to company goals when working for hortapharm were concerning, example Creating strains that cant be cloned and produce sterile seed or hermaphrodites. That’s straight up terminator gene gmo bullshit monsanto pulls. Then again hortapharm and gw pharma had ties to each other, gw pharma and Bayer have ties, and monsanto and Bayer have ties ,one of the main monsanto dudes is also on the Drug Policy alliance , a group pushing for the legalization of cannabis in several different countries. To many ties to people who want to controll the plant for there own profits while taking it from those who it rightfully belongs to, the people .Him and Robert Connell clark say things that are far from true but benefit there image. For example when robert was on board with phylos he made a statement that no work has been done to stabilize a cannabis strain. What kind of blatantly ignorant bullshit lie is that. We have the strains we have today from the work of others doing exactly what he claims has not been done. Dave claims to be retired but is on the board for united cannabis Corp in colorado who happens to be in the middle of a patent dispute. Dave is also the holder of several cannabis patents him self. He claims to have created skunk while part of sacred seeds, again he also claims sacred seeds was a made up story by somebody else. There is no evidence of sacred seeds or him ever existing in santa cruz besides the stories online. Most of the weed in those days was brought in, grown and sold by BOEL and the 81 guys. Nevil and him disagreed about what seeds nevil bought from him ,specificaly what version of the haze and nevil was always on the forums ready and willing to go to to toe with sam or dave what ever he felt like going by. Dave watson has been involved with several major companies yet does anybody have a picture of him no, just a blurred video of him talking back in the late nineties on the hempen rd documentary. I wont say Dave is a snitch or a dea spy like some but I will say he has a deeply controversial history in the cannabis industry and I dont like his business ethics one bit. He claims to have invented selfing but it’s a common practice in plant breeding and has been sense before his time. If sacred seeds never existed and the bust never happend somebody was spending alot of time trying to make Dave out to be a monster or putting alot of effort into marketing haze. Who knows how much of any of it was true or not. I will say several companies sold seeds pre prohibition so whether or not sacred seeds was real it was not the first cannabis seed company. If you go and compare all of Dave’s statements about sacred seeds alot of contradictions apear. Thats assuming that the person posting as sam on other forums is actualy Dave and not somebody else just spinning more confusion onto the subject. Like @LemonadeJoe pointed out it would be very hard to prove or disprove something that occured in 1985 and what part who played in it. I think very few people actualy know the whole truth about any of it. On another note I’d love to smoke some blue orca or any of the other strains BOEL was known for back then.
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As a younger dude in L.A., I’m mad as hell that you could rent a mansion in Bel Air for $6k a month. It’s like seeing those old pics of gas at $1.25 and getting that knot in my stomach.
Anyway, envy aside, I’m appreciating the history you’re sharing.
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As someone part of the future generations no it doesn’t help. Dick swinging and tall tales don’t help anyone
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@PanchoVilla maybe when he said about having to go through so many keys for the 2-3 seeds maybe he meant to find the seeds that gave him the right pheno he was looking for? I agree I still get “brick” weed every now and again from Jamaica Mon and I’d say the bud weight to seed weight ratio is easily 1-1 but I found some fire out of those seeds man but 1 I planted was fire the other one hermed early doors so coulda just meant that.
Shit I was born in the 90s so all this old info is great reading up for me but seems to me like nobody would know unless there at the time plus we all smoke fuckin weed so let’s be real nobody could remember 2 weeks ago clearly let alone 40+ years ago clearly.
All these old timers should be remembered for being the cannabis pioneers as it wouldn’t be here without them doing what they’ve done period. Let em rest in peace without throwing shade eh?
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Thank you for the history lesson @ToddMcC
I think part of the issue is that people want to be “right” and want to present the biggest cock on here. It is laughable cuz we will never really know the truth. We are/were dealing with something that is/was illegal. We all know that people gotta add more frosting to the cake (add there own twist on the story to make it there’s). In the end “who really cares”, instead of back biting each other we should take info in and dispose of the garbage. Like we do every day when we deal with people. I also think that we pay way more money on a meal, that will be shitted out in a few hours. $20 for a fire ass seed is nothing, as long as it germs and gets you blowed !!!
This is nonsense guys, we are Overgrow, thought we were a cohesive unit of like minded growers. Not ones to bash the shit out of our own family. Again, I love to read all the scoop from the past. Thanks to all the trailblazers who paved the way for us to, at least, come out into the open with what we all love doing.
o+>
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Sooooo…with that being said…
that thai/afghan…
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