Peter's Perfect - Reengineering 321 Formula to the Ultimate Coco Experience

lefthandseeds · January 15, 2019, 2:14am

I have only tried a calcium chloride / borax foliar spray. I think you can actually buy a bag of sidewalk de-icer and it’s calcium chloride but I didn’t go there… I opted for this one instead, so I could run some experiments with it:

The foliar was based on this research paper: http://dergipark.gov.tr/download/article-file/119492

Another calcium option is either Calcium EDTA 9.7%, or Safergro Calcium Chelate if you want the aminos. I’d be wary of too much calcium chloride. It just doesn’t sound great. Cutting the calcium nitrate with some calcium EDTA could be a reasonable approach… but I’m just not sure how Canna gets away with so much N. It makes me think there’s something else that could be done that would be more cost effective.

Coco is a much more dynamic medium than anybody gives it credit for. I almost wonder if the massive PK boost in week 3 has lingering effects that negate the need to reduce N.

lefthandseeds · January 15, 2019, 3:49am

Nevermind about canna. Quick google search reveals that lots of people see N tox in flower.

I just switched over to the canna coco ab line.

Medium: canna coco in 2 gallon smart-pot
Lighting: 1000w hps
Second week of flower
Nutrients: Canna coco a\b 5ml a gallon, magical 1ml a gallon, protekt .75 ml a gallon in soft tap water
Ph: 5.9
Showing signs of nitrogen toxicity
Top leaves are Clawing and canoeing upside down
Flushed with ph’d 6.0 tap water.

I have read that canna a\b is high in nitrogen, what are people doing early flowering that keeps the high nitrogen levels down?

I think I won’t use calcium chloride. Apparently due to NaCl from the ocean, coir normally already has a lot of it, and too much can cause phytotoxicity. I agree the only way to reduce nitrogen is to find another calcium source. We can’t increase K without throwing off the K:Ca balance, and without another calcium source than calcium nitrate, would be stuck again.

The unfortunate part of trying to decrease N effectively is that chelated calcium is $$$. And it’s much lower density calcium than calcium nitrate – so over the long term, you’ll end up using about as much chelated calcium as calcium nitrate, making it a very cost ineffective solution. Bummer.

If you want to try calcium chloride, it probably can only reduce N by about 10% before the Cl becomes a problem. I’m not sure that’s enough to really move the needle. The only other option is to sacrifice Ca to the gods and let the K:Ca ratio slip down to about 3:1… and pray that doesn’t cause Ca deficiency… or do some compromise solution of adding CaCl2 and reducing K:Ca to about 2.5:1

This could be something to consider – 36g Peters, 17g calcium nitrate, 8g epsom, 2g calcium chloride

It’s not terrible.

lefthandseeds · January 15, 2019, 6:26am

Found this again… Good post with a summary of a bunch of ratios other growers have used:

Fatman
3-1-2 Veg
2-1-3 Flower
Phosphorus is hinge element @ 40ppm

Yosemite Sam
Altered Fatman’s
3-1-4 Veg
2.5 -1 -4.4 Flower
Phosphorus is hinge element @ 40ppm

Capulator newest (he started w/ yosemite formula)
2.75 -1 - 3.74 Veg
2 - 1 - 4.4 Flower
Phosphorus is hinge element @ 50 ppm

Jalisco Kid
2 - 1 - 4 Veg
2 - 1 - 4.6 Flower
1.3 - 1 - 3.6 Boost
Phosphorus is hinge element @ 60 ppm (excluding boost P= 90)

Dankworth
2 - 1 - 5 Flower
1.2 - 1 - 3.5 Boost
Nitrate is the hinge element @ 120 ppm

Dizzlekush
4.28 -1 - 4.71 Veg
3 - 1 - 3.3 Flower
Phosphorus is hinge element @ 35 (veg) and 50 (bloom)

Various Jack’s Pro Hydro Users

-MFG recommendation (3.69 / 2.44 / 1)
2.85 - 1 - 4.12 Entire grow
Phosphorus is hinge element @ 50 ppm

-Yosemite Sam first to ever use jacks’ (3/2/1)
2.86 - 1 - 4.12 Entire grow
Phosphorus is hinge element @ 41 ppm

-Some currently use (3/1.8.1)
2.67 - 1 - 4.12 Entire grow
Phosphorus is hinge element @ 41 ppm

Ur uhm… Lucas formula
1 - 1 - 2 Entire grow

I think these aren’t quoted as N:P2O5:K2O, like NPK labels. As I read further down the post, it appears these are ppm ratios.

Makes me think that K:Ca should be actual K and not K2O… which would actually make some targets much easier to hit. Supposing this is true, a good middle ground for flower is 2.25-1-4.4 is with phosphorous at ~50pm. Set Ca at 2.2 and Mg at 1.1.

This is much easier to accomplish:
38.5g Peters, 20g Calcium Nitrate, 9g Epsom, 6g Calcium EDTA OR 1.5g Calcium chloride

More Peters to increase the K, less Calcium Nitrate to reduce the N, add Calcium EDTA to hold the K:Ca ratio.

For PK boost, add 6g MKP and 3g potassium sulfate around week 3.

I’ll work up a schedule for veg and flower with pk boost. Then we can review it and make changes and I’ll run the experiment.

lefthandseeds · January 16, 2019, 1:15am

Cliff Notes for Experiment 1

Lots of conversation and conjecture. I feel pretty good about where I’ve landed on this, and am ready to solidify a plan for my next grow in a few weeks. I’ll be posting some pictures here periodically as updates.

**All notes below spoken in terms of ppm and not K20/P2O5

Rules of thumb and special considerations:

Coco naturally contains a lot of K and S, formulas should be adjusted to accommodate
Coco depletes Ca2+ ions and replaces the K+ sites
Nutrient formulas can range in K:Ca ratios from 2:1 to 10:1, though most formulas are 2:1 to 3:1 and given that coco depletes Ca and releases K, I will stick to 2:1
K, Ca and Mg are all (+) charge ions and compete with each other, adding any one of these antagonizes the other two. Ratios should be kept around 2:1 K:Ca and 2:1 Ca:Mg to 3:1 Ca:Mg
Prefer Ca > P, by at least 1.5:1. Not sure why just yet, but this has been noted a few places in my research. It’s easy to hit in the Peters formula, so I’m just recording it for records.
Cl is abundantly present in coco, and does not need further addition. It would be safest to add none, but probably not an issue kept below 30-50ppm.

NPK by empiricism and consensus:

The 321 formula is approximately a 3-1-4 ratio. Many growers have noted that this is too much N in flower. Also, I would prefer a little less K and more N in veg.

Full strength veg (replace epsom with magnesium nitrate):

Veg Formula
26g Peters
15g Calcium Nitrate
6g Magnesium Nitrate

PPMs
N (NO3-)	98.773
K	149
P	32.971
Mg	37.418
Ca	74.345
S	27.474
Fe	2.061
Zn	0.103
B	0.343
Cu	0.203
Mo	0.069
Na	13
Si	0
Cl	0.91
Mn	0.343
N (NH4+)	0

Critical ratios:

The full strength flower formula will contain less N than the usual 321, by reducing calcium nitrate, and add Calcium EDTA to compensate.

Full strength flower (approx 10 gallons):

Flower Formula
Peters 5-11-26     39.5
Calcium Nitrate 	19
Magnesium Sulfate 	9
Calcium EDTA	 	7


N (NO3-)	111.813
K	225.97
P	50.091
Mg	56.89
Ca	110.214
S	72.671
Fe	3.13
Zn	0.157
B	0.522
Cu	0.257
Mo	0.104
Na	13
Si	0
Cl	0.91
Mn	0.522
N (NH4+)	0

Also, I will be adding 6g MKP and 3g Potassium Sulfate for one week in early stage flower development around week 3 of flower.

lefthandseeds · February 10, 2019, 4:05am

A little update here. In just a few days, I’ll be starting the veg portion of the Peter’s perfect schedule (rev 1). I’ll be coordinating between here and my grow log thread with pictures. I’ll be targeting this one with close ups of any deficiencies or problems that I run into along the way.

My grow log is over here:
https://overgrow.com/t/afghaniganza-now-black-afghani-cherry-queen-black-leb-blue-hemp-leb-and-la-confidential/

lefthandseeds · February 16, 2019, 7:24pm

OK here’s the schedule I’ll be following.

I’ve made a few slight modifications to the above. The veg formula is going to be 3-2-1, but replacing epsom with mag nitrate. The transition is standard 3-2-1 with epsom, and the flower formula is the most critical, adding Calcium EDTA. Among other things, the K:Ca ratio of the standard formula is too high for flower. I am OK with that initially in the Veg/Transition formulas (roughly 1:0.63). The coco will tend to immobilize Ca and release K for a few weeks, effectively bringing that ration down. But later in flower, the coco is fully buffered and the ratio is too high according to many sources. I believe that this is a source of issues, limiting K uptake eventually. Additionally, observation has showed that reducing N after a week or two in flower might be beneficial. The purpose of the calcium EDTA is to hold the K:Ca ratio, but remove N from the feed.

The PK boost happens for 1 week only, at the onset of bud formation. PK boost throws off the K:Ca ratio, and will probably cause deficiency in Ca, if prolonged. Add MKP and K2SO4 to the mix for 1 week, then back to the flower formula.

Edit: Adding foliar schedule.

lefthandseeds · February 18, 2019, 5:51pm

Week 1

I’m calling this the end of week 1. Most plants have only been fed 1 time so far. EC is 0.7. I’ll bump it up to 0.9 for next waterings, even though we have a few stragglers. The tiny black afghani and blue hemp leb in front I had to physically crack open to germinate. The blue hemp seems to be responding, but jury is still out on the afghani.

All plants have received at least 1 foliar spray with TM-7.

lefthandseeds · February 24, 2019, 7:43pm

Week 2 End

Everybody’s still happy. Just gave them their weekly TM-7 foliar, and bumped the EC up to 1.1.

lefthandseeds · March 18, 2019, 1:25am

Week 3 End (Veg formula 1.1EC, 18/6)

Lots of growth the last week. I took a pic a day early, because I might up-pot today. They’re starting to need more space to sprawl out.

Still 1.1EC, though I need probably 1 more week before flipping to the transition formula and setting lights to 12/12. I’ll probably insert a week of 1.3EC feeds to the schedule and re-adjust. TM-7 foliar is still on for tomorrow.

lefthandseeds · March 18, 2019, 1:25am

Week 4 End (Veg formula 1.3 EC, 18/6)

The fun begins! Over the last week I’ve been slowly transplanting everything to larger pots. Most of the plants have at least partly recovered from stress.

Left to right are earliest to latest transplants. I didn’t feed them for a few days after transplant, and some of them started yellowing out. You can see the color difference between the older and newer transplants. That’s real, and not an optical artifact.

I mixed a new batch of nutes. I am technically using the “transition” mix right now, but at 1.6 EC, since I added a week of veg. Also, the plants are hungry and asking for more at this point, so next time around I might bump up the week 3&4 EC a bit. I also just gave them their weekly TM-7 foliar application. They love it.

I think the lesson is that because watering is infrequent initially after transplant, it should also be higher EC. The good news is that I think the Veg formula went really well and all of the plants seemed very happy with it. Of course, they’re not picky at that point…

Probably today or tomorrow, I’ll put these on 12/12. Then we’ll see how the flowering formula holds up.

lefthandseeds · March 18, 2019, 1:25am

Week 5 End (Transition formula 1.6EC, 12/12)

On track, no real complaints from any of the plants to report. TM-7 again today. Either this week or next will be the final foliar application… depending on when the buds start to show.

Plants greened up and grew a lot last week. My gut tells me to go 1 more week on the transition formula. I think I’d like to keep the nitrogen up a bit until they’re in stretch before I drop it down. After next week, I’ll post the changes to the schedule that I’ve made (+1 week of veg to the calendar, EC up by .2 at the transition formula and probably 2 weeks of transition mix).

lefthandseeds · March 25, 2019, 2:28am

Week 6 End (Transition formula, 1.8EC, 12/12)

Everyone is still nutrient happy. I’m switching over to the flower formula though, I think the Afghani are starting to signal that they don’t need so much N. It’s a good time to cross over, because the flowers are going to start coming into bloom in probably about a week.

lefthandseeds · April 1, 2019, 2:19am

Week 7 End (Flower formula, 1.9 EC, 12/12)

I did get a bit of yellowing on the lower leaves on some of the bigger plants, now that I’ve dropped down the N; however, since I was out, they’ve been getting under-watered (1x feed per day right now). I need to get them up to 2x per day, and that might fix the problem without any further adjustments. However, next time, I’ll probably actually extend the transition formula through this week as well, and then drop it during week 8.

I had originally written 1 week of “transition” formula (strict Peters 321). Then I called an audible and did 2 weeks instead. Now I am seeing a bit of deficiency (probably from underfeeding), but nonetheless, it’s showing lack of N.

When I’m done, I’ll publish a new schedule that runs the transition formula for 3 weeks instead. Then we’ll see if we hit any rough patches at this time next grow.
Simple adjustments to make.

lefthandseeds · April 7, 2019, 1:19am

Week 8 End (Flower formula, 1.9 EC, 12/12)

I think things are going really well this grow and with this formula. Not a lot of complaints about the N, maybe a few downturned leaf tips, but overall better than 321 for me.

I just refilled the res, and none too soon. It’s a good time to run a week of bloom booster. Adding 6g MKP, 3g Potassium Sulfate and turning the EC up to 2.0.

lefthandseeds · April 16, 2019, 2:12am

Week 9 End (Flower + Bloom, 2.0 EC, 12/12)

I’ve completed 7 days of the flower + bloom formula. A few plants started to show some calcium deficiency… if you read above, this is not unexpected. K & Ca are antagonistic, and a few of the plants weren’t especially happy about it.

I got a few leaves yellowing out on the Blue Hemp Lebanese. Really just a progression of last week. I will likely push out the transition formula straight up until bloom boost (~3-4 weeks in total). That should help pump the Ca and N up a bit right before I knock it down.

From here out, it’s just straight flower formula. We’ll see how it does.

lefthandseeds · May 28, 2019, 8:48pm

Peters Perfect Rev2 schedule

Here’s my new schedule. So, I did some experiments with Agsil 16H (potassium silicate) and wanted to add it back into the schedule. I saw noticeable increases in stem strength using just 1g/10gal (~6ppm Si). It is worth using, and can be used in low enough quantities that it doesn’t cause severe pH drifts. Also, last run some of the Afghanis had a bad reaction to the bloom boosters (initiated Ca and Mg issues that didn’t recover). It seems like calcium hungry plants didn’t want the boosters, and could benefit from keeping the K:Ca ratio a bit higher during flower.

I backed off the formula a bit toward the original 321, added potassium silicate in until mid-flower and then switch to potassium sulfate for the last few weeks. Also, I extended the transition formula for 3 weeks to hold the nitrogen levels through stretch.

You can see that the flower formula drops N and Ca/Mg toward the end, to facilitate K uptake further. It also boosts sulfur during trichome production to hopefully enhance the flavor and smells.

These are fairly minor tweaks to the first formula. Things actually went pretty well for rev1, and was better than the 321 formula straight through. The veg formula using magnesium nitrate was really good. I didn’t touch that at all, except to add some silica to toughen up the plant cells.

I will update again periodically during my next grow to inform how it’s going.

StillSmoking · June 19, 2019, 7:08am

You need to write an app for all the growers…

DoseThemAll · July 29, 2019, 12:11am

Nice thread

Any updates?

lefthandseeds · July 29, 2019, 1:33am

Thanks!

Yea I used that formula in the chart exactly starting around week number 5-6 for my last grow. It went really well and none of the plants complained (other than the thrips I had to deal with). My current grow is moving to week 3 with the formula, and going well. I haven’t used the potassium silicate yet, but am thinking I need to do that in the next bucket of nutes I mix. I’ll probably stick to the formula through this grow, as I’m not sure it really needs tweaked any further.

DoseThemAll · July 29, 2019, 1:43am

Why EDTA Cal over the others? Though I’ve read plenty on the subject, I’m curious to what you guys think since we use the same powders.