SOG, SCROG or ? on a Commercial Scale

Ok, so I have recently begun working for a large MSO, and get to work with 45,000 sq ft of canopy!!!

Obviously this is a licensed facility with a canopy limit, not a plant count limit, so we could do either SOG, SCROG or other methods. I know a decent bit about both methods, but mainly on a homegrow scale. Plant counts are a concern usually, and SCROGs are preferred many times at home. For once in my life, those limitations aren’t there, and I would love to be able to bring some valid suggestions to my managers and see if we can’t boost production another 5-6g / sq ft to hit our next target. Some of those numbers are confidential to the company (current yield / sq ft for example) so I can’t share them, but lets just say shit’s dialed in pretty well for yields now. We SCROG pretty much everything.

Biggest hurdle is the air handling equipment, while it seems impressive, it still struggles with keeping a lower humidity for later flower stages. There are a number of strains with different growth characteristics (some taller / leggy, some tall and really branchy, some short and branchy), and a number of different rooms. We often mix 2-3 strains per room, averaging 500 ish in a smaller room on 2 or 3 tiers (3 is usually veg, flower rooms are 1-2 tiers). Thats SCROGGED… I’d imagine in a SOG, that would amount the 5000ish plants to fill those same racks.

But plant counts are not an issue (perhaps generating enough cuttings might be though, to make 10x more than currently are needed).

Would SOG help with airflow? Considering less branches, I’d imagine so, but they are also packed together pretty densely in a SOG, so ???

Harvest cycles could be much quicker with SOG, needing considerably less Veg time. Could I squeeze out a few more harvests per year, and add in a variable for them to consider (yield / sq ft / length of time) ? i.e. if it takes 130 days from cutting to harvest in SCROG and I yield 6000g, and it takes say 90 days cut to harvest with a SOG and less time in veg, but only pull in 4500g, in 260 days I could have 12,000g or in 270 days have 13,500g (fictitious numbers just to show the consideration of time).

Would you do both SOG and SCROG based on individual plant characteristics? Some are SOGGED, and others would be SCROGGED?

The people I work with have some good knowledge, and I feel like I am right at their level, but I’d love to bring something more to the table. While I am confident in my knowledge for home grow and plant health, not all things scale easily to commercial, and I struggle at times to get past my home grow mindset. I am also only a lowly cultivation tech (been there a mere 3 weeks), but my supervisors have seen my knowledge and actually listen to suggestions from me, so help me take this to the next level!!

How can I squeeze out another few grams per sq ft, when environmentals are generally in line (no insect issues, occasional PM later in flower due to RH, no botrytis), decent fert program, excellent lighting and a pretty good regiment of defoliation / training done by a team of cultivators. Should I even consider SOG, or would it not make much benefit for the extra resources it would need (10x the plant count). We are actively working on VPD adjustments, but its hard with our air handling equipment. Hundreds of fans throughout the rooms and STILL a ton of microclimates within some rooms (can be 90F on one rack and 75F on another level just 15 ft away despite 30 large fans distributing air around the room. Its really crazy to see some issues here that you just never see in a small scale home grow. Getting VPD dialed in and automated might eliminate the lingering PM issues.

Sadly I can’t give details on grow media / ferts / schedules as thats company confidential, and I realize that info would probably help here, but I’ll say its a solid foundation and the plants look amazing, and the smells of the different strains are incredible. Not falling short in that department at all… Maybe bump up P / K more for flowering? I see some with leaf tips barely burned, but not many, so maybe could take a little more ferts?

Any ideas? Thoughts? Comments???

Bueller? Bueller??? Bueller???

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if it were me, and i have toured a grow facility for a job interview and a few in co a few years back, i would stay away from sog on a commercial scale. way too much vegetation as you noted with the airflow. i would concentrate more on helping them with their airflow than anything else. you found the problem, now help them fix it and you’ll be the man, or whatever you prefer to be called.

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I doubt I’m even qualified to answer this question. Have there been any commercial scale tests of sog vs scrog? If not then you and your team may have to pioneer this work. I would ASSUME sog would be better at squeezing out a few more grams per square foot, but you know what they say when you assume….

Sog would be problematic if they are having rh issues with scrog. The easiest way to get those extra couple grams would be to run a higher yielding strain. Do they have fans under tables and canopy’s?

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Yes, fans are high mounted on the all walls, low mounted on some walls (not the front walking wall / aisle), and even box hepa fans in various places on the floor (mostly in the walking aisle). TRULY a TON of air flow, even box fans that blow into ventilation tubes going above each row. To have the micro climates we get, with that much air moving, almost seems impossible. These are NOT small fans either!

Lots of issues that were present there a year ago have been corrected, and the yields have jumped nicely for those corrections. I have inquired about how to bring in a new strain, but thats still above my pay grade. Would love to bring Frankenstein to the grow :slight_smile: I BET she’d put it that 5 g / sq ft over.

Its a balancing act at an MSO. We gotta make some targets for yields to request more equipment / pay raises, but we gotta do it with what we got… There are investors who vote on / control that kind of spending, but thankfully they invest… Lots of upgrades coming, and hoping to dial down the RH 10% for later flower to help things. I often wonder if the PM and its related stresses to the plant might be the difference of that 5g, without the PM would the unstressed plant yield more? How much does that PM affect yield? (we do get it under control but the point I want to get to is NO PM to need to control).

Sounds like SOG isn’t the best idea at the moment though…

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Maybe try moving the the fans from the isles to under the benches/canopy, flowing in the opposite direction of the scrubbers/ exhaust on the ceiling. It’s free to try, just move if the fans to more critical positions :grin:

I can’t offer much advice but I will say, regardless of how dialed you can get VPD, never, I repeat, never slow down on IPM.
Your biggest suggestion to management should be to get the airflow/hvac dialed in. Gotta spend money to make money and it would suck to lose any of that canopy to rot or mold.
Good luck and congratulations!

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Wise words and I definitely agree, I’ve made that mistake a couple times and that’s when I’ve had to suffer a loss on harvest weight due to getting lazy over time etc

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We have an IPM department, and they are in each room, multiple times a day, looking for any signs of an issue even starting. Between changing scrubs, or tyvek suits, multiple times a day (cross contamination of any sort is a big concern all over the facility), I do not envy them. I am generally in the same room, maybe 2 at most, the whole day (only gotta change outta scrubs to leave the building). They are why we get PM under control quickly… Once more air handlers are added and we drop late flower RH a little, I think PM issues will be gone. But those guys (IPM department) know their shiznit (I’ve had some great conversations with them). They’ve been teaching me more than I teach them (and thats a good thing for a knowledge sponge like myself).

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Greetings Nags,

I am wondering if your site uses actual ScrOG or just trellises as a technique?

Traditional Screen of Green (SCROG) involves tucking each branch underneath the screen for a nearly horizontal canopy. Trellises nets are typically hung above the plant simply to support heavily laden budding branches. (I know that you know this already).
image

The reason I ask is that Scrogging as I’ve understood it requires a ton of time and attention to daily adjustments during the entire stretch and it is hard to imagine that it would pay off in a production facility such as yours.

On the other hand, I bet you could use a very specific HST pruning method such as described in this thread to significantly increase yield in a cost effective manner?

Automatic Writing

My friend @bu2b coaxed almost a pound per plant out of his plants on a pretty regular basis with his program and all training is finished in just a few weeks when the plants are still small.

Regards,
-Grouchy

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Microclimate pockets require microclimate solutions.

One thing I did when I encountered such a problem was to push air through perforated vinyl lines running through each rack to displace/dislodge trapped air.

If Marilyn was a plant

I’m a big advocate of adapt your methods to your plants not your plants to your methods.

The choice to scrog most/all is surprising to me, and I don’t doubt they thought things through but without converting the whole op to sog surely some would perform better.

Usually the advantages of scrog start and end at leveled canopy and height control… while losing the need/gift of light penetration.

One technique I use alot is to remove crown leaves from apical dominant shoots which will slow them while they rebuild their foliage, letting undercarriage catch up, leveling the canopy while keeping depth.

That’s what I got…

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We do both. There’s 3 levels of scrog netting. The first is an actual scrog, and the 2nd and 3rd are more for trelissing and support.

We’ll put a team of 4-8 people in a room and go to town tucking and spreading out branches for that 1st level. To make it easy for newbies to understand the goal, I say use the 6"x6" layout of the scrog netting as a guide. Each plant should be centered in a 3x3 square (so 18x18") and bring the branches out to the 8 perimeter 6x6 squares opening up the middle / forming a vase. Definitely get a nice even canopy going across a 5x5 square area (30"x30") per plant. The next two nets are for support as we dont tuck anything on those levels.

I’ve inquired about HST / supercropping / FIMming, and they haven’t done much. I want to see what we could do with FIM in veg if we stick with scrogging. There’s still some screen that can fill out, but not much.

Thanks for the link, I’ll check out the link on the HST pruning method next…

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We have these in the newer built rooms. They do seem to have a more consistent measurement in those rooms and I’ve mentioned that to the environmentals group. The “Over the plants / mounted to the rack” air tubes are almost like a 4" piece of pipe with 1/2" holes drilled like drainage pipe.

Same here, and why I am thinking hard on suggestions. There are a few strains that honestly, SCROG is a waste of time as they are so short and bushy, they might do better in a modified SOG as they will never spread out much in a SCROG (minimal stretch). There are some strains that are a friggen birdsnest in a scrog, but absolutely need to be scrogged and supported, and some that grow mainly a few larger branches that I dunno where I’d place them… To use the same technique on such variation doesn’t seem optimal to me really.

I’ll have to chat with the team in Veg and see just where they are topping / how. I haven’t worked in that deparment at all yet…

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i don’t think fimming would be a good fit for commercial ops. we do it in homegrows mainly to increase output while keeping plant count low. i may be mistaken about that, but if that is the case it would be offset by the amount of time it takes, the increased risk of contamination spreading, and all of it could be offset by just growing more plants. having said that, it couldn’t hurt to do a comparison on clones to see if it does make a difference.

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Sog all the way :wink:

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Quite impressive.

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Buy 1x (once) and make diy grow medium and it last atleast 3 years (huge savings)
(Soilless) ebb and flow also 1 fertilizer beginning till end
No pre grow 0 day to max 1 week thats it
Only problem its labor intensive
Sog system in overdrive😉
Working on a more commercial friendly setup at the moment

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Hey @Nagel420 our state ag school has an interesting paper about this:

Edit: a few more

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/302972809_A_CFD_study_on_improving_air_flow_uniformity_in_indoor_plant_factory_system

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I agree with @Kushking902 genetics are a big factor especially with your environment not being dialed in.

You would want, in a huge commercial grow, high yielding mold resistant strains with high thc% and bag appeal. You can do this with modern genetics but you either need to buy expensive clones or pheno hunt in-house.

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