I worked for a big spirit distillery and wine maker and you’d be shocked to know that from the same tank they bottled a 11$, a 18$ and a 22$ wine. Same wine, different sticker LOL
Prices are based on hype and the false sense of quality…
To me, unless you spent years growing large numbers to breed something, nothing is worth more than a buck a seed eh
Producing chucks under 4k watts in a 12x12, big trees etc you’re looking at 500k seeds, ridiculous. Charging 20$ a seed for untested random mating is crazy talk lol
S1 really should be treated like f2 with a “head start” of having “matching parents”. Instead just selfing, take the S1 that are a matching pair of the traits your looking for and then breed them together to make the f3 generation. Or do that at any point in your “s” gens. In theory, Breeding a fem lines can “stabilize” a line of seeds faster. since you know what the buds of the parents are like, instead of unknowns from a male. But there’s people that say fem are missing something that true males carry…
When I grew these clone only strains back in the day there were no seeds…just because they come in seed form now doesn’t mean its gonna be the same phenos as the clone only cuttings…
When crossing two diffrent inbred lines, you would end up with a true f1 and the cycle begins again pop 100 f1s keep top 5 and s1 each of them in 5 different plots. Grow 30 of every family etc.
If crossing two inbred families of the same strain, the resulting line would theoretically be your end goal, a finished project.
Any further advancements would be done through germinating massive numbers and looking for transgressive segregation(extreme phenos, for xyz traits) then depending on your goals either outcross, s1 and map genes again or other breeding schemes. If you’re adamant about inbreeding such lines, and you do a really good job at dodging deleterious recessives, it’s again a case of inbreeding depression (homozygosity) finding a mate to restore vigor etc
But I personally don’t think it’s a m/f vs fem situation but rather a was there enough testing done in many different environments before going forward. Selfing or inbreeding with small pop will decrease vigor but also resistance to common pests and fungi…
The real beauty of having an homozygous line for xyz traits is the possibility to breed with something with known expressions.
I’ve read of breeders keeping clones of plants that’s absolute trash… apart from the fact that they’re monstrously resistant to anything and everything you throw at them.
If I didn’t understand your question and started rambling, just point me in the right direction lol
I’m already a few beers deep
Idk, If it were me I’d say it’s a better bet to take it to s2 and deal with the variation, I.e accept that it’s likely to take germinating a dozen or so beans to find one that is closest to the original. It can be too easy to end up with deleterious traits becoming dominant and inbred suppression almost inevitably becomes an issue because of it , especially with recurrent selfing. Just by selecting from a limited gene pool and Inbreeding it drastically increases the risk of getting alleles in alignment for characteristics you don’t want,
As a general rule, the more heterozygous a plant the greater the vigour, there’s a deep rabbit hole of discussion around why so called ‘hybrid vigour’ and inbreeding suppression area a thing, but that’s probably for another day…
Anyways as others have pointed out there is a significant flip side to the quest for ‘purity’, and if not careful the end result can be an unrecoverable mess, hence the suggestion of maintaining the original mother etc. The idea of outcrossing to a donor male, selecting it out and then recombination with seperate selfed line is a good strategy, but holy shit bro, you’re up for a fuckton of work😬
Find similar Lineage and outcross would be my idea, and then backcross.
Mom Gooey (or Norcalgooey) is an example where a nice Backcross was done right.
The Backcross was Mom Gooey x Skunk, then back to Mom like 5 times. And its pretty good. I found there was very few Skunk remaining. But yeah, needs alot experience probably.
What elite Cutting per Example do you need to preserve?
My first time blooming this cut, what shocked me was the trichrome development on the leaves during veg!
I have a plant from a banana kush bag seed that I kept, I really like this plant. Don’t know what the “father” was, could be anything the grower had that hermied, or it could be a S1. To me she smells like lucky charms cereal, I want to use her in crosses and also try to isolate that flavor in seed form. I figured it would take several back crosses careful selection. I’m likely going to do it as a fem line to help with selections, and see if it speeds up the process. But that’s all a project for later, I have several more cuts to try, chucks to do, a preservation seed run lined up…
I could, and prob will. But selfing usually still has lots of phenos, it just ups the chance that there will be a very similar one to the original. To increase the likelihood of the flavors and smells I want to show up, I would still back cross with the most similar daughter
That makes sense on paper, and with very careful selection and luck it could work. It’s a lot shorter than taking it it f5/f6 to get a stabilized breeding line. Peppers, tomatoes, and others that naturally self pollinate take 6 generations of preventing cross pollination and saving seeds from the plants that have the desired trait.
Unless the original plant is stable (homozygous), selfing actually decrease the chances that it will be similar to the original.
Apparently this doesn’t work the way he describes it. The problem is each time you get half the genes from each parent. That being said, with selection it can stabilize a line.
This is my preferred technique, particularly with autos where clones and back crossing aren’t really an option.
These plants have the ability to deal with the deleterious traits with selfing. Cannabis is an obligate outcrosser, and cannot deal with the deleterious traits with selfing.
Many thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread. The level of knowledge and wide range of perspectives is invaluable for the project I am currently working on.
I have a big pile of S1 seeds from an Elite/clone-only strain and I wasn’t sure how much pheno variation I would see when the seeds are grown out. That question is being answered right now and this conversation is helping to guide our project breeding plan.
pop 100 f1s keep top 5 and s1 each of them in 5 different plots. Grow 30 of every family etc.
