Don’t worry, we’re used to fence on this matter. More a reminder to make you stronger for the next round ^^
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I like to Hear and read those people fencing on knowdoledge,we all learn from mistakes or from trial and error only if we are as wise as capable to admit and accept that our point of view or knowdoledge could be “wrong” at times.
Thank you both @LonelyOC @Fuel
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I too thank you both for all the cool info. 
It is very nice to see 2 individuals disagree with each other but continue to be respectful and pleasant.
My hat is off to you 2 fine gents.
Well said.
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Hey, are you trying to select and inbreed @LonelyOC 
?
Have read the last round on a breeding thread, over my head, but slowly getting there reading both of your inputs (and others)
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@funkyfunk Sorry, I don’t really understand your question you got for me…
In this thread I’m trying to explain how the genetics behind herms work and why any type of herm seeds are a bad thing.
Pz 
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My bad, I was asking @fuel if they were trying to select/inbreed you. Just a silly joke from his phrase. 
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i’ve been thinking about this a while as it relates to elite clones being selfed. elite clone being i.e. lots of recessives. when selfed, hormonal issues may be brought out that were not present in the clone. alternatively, a lot of elites seem to have hormonal problems.
idk, just something to think about when running fems as i never heard anyone talk about this in a clear way. perhaps a fem seeds that is a cross between two cultivars or just different cuts of the same cultivar would be safer.
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I have 3 questions relating to the original posting.Is there any difference between making 2 clones from the same pheno and reversing one to pollinate the other vs. Reversing a branch of an established plant to cross with another branch? Next question- Would a pheno made from stable genetics and chemically reversed with sts allow for more stable offspring than a pheno that herms on its own? What could be the differences between the plant reversed with sts and the progeny from those seeds?
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No.
It’s what make the difference between a shitty fem and the top of the cream of this kind of product, and also the recurrent polemic about it in a way. I still hate fems, but the difference between a “very hard to reverse” cut and a cut that is surrounded by bananas like a breeze with just one spray … have a repercussion in the grow later. Needless to say that with a specimen that don’t need at all to be sprayed to be triggered, it’s even worse.
The selection itself make the difference, not the process. You have to select your reversed specimens specifically for this process.
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The hormonal issue in a progeny is based on the genetic material of the parents. So if a elite is stable but a lot of the S1s are herming, this means that the elites progeny always will carry a tendency for herms. Only way to get a lower rate is to use a more stable partner which is less on the “herm range”.
What I’m trying to say is that if you pop 100 seeds of a cultivar and 10% herm and you cross it to a cultivar where 10% herm. Even though you selected for not herming individuals, the herm rate will have a high chance for being 10% or lower. So this is just a chance, I’m not saying it WILL happen, but it’s a high chance for this to happen.
If you instead crossed the herm plants of both batches of seeds, there would be a high chance for being 10% or higher in the coming progeny.
So this is how you get around herms in for example landraces, you continue to select for non herming plants, lowering the chance for herms every generation, until you get close to zero.
Pz
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If you have a male(xy), you can still make reg seeds thanks to the presence of the Y chromosome. If you have a female(xx) you cannot make reg seeds, only fem seeds, because they have no way to make or pass on the y.
xy/xy = 25% nonviable(yy), and 25% fems(xx) and 50% males(xy).
That’s the difference and how/why the males “carry the full genome” but the females do not. Females can pass herms/plants with ethylene problems that might look male but they’ll still be xx, like the “males” found in certain S1’s.
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Yes, you are correct with that statement, the data diversity will obviously be larger in a “XY” chromosomal pair. But the hormonal triggering parts of “X” is viewed as a recessive trigger mechanism, which means it won’t activate without the two. What “Y” actually do carry is not having the triggering effect, the actual chromosomal data is less and also the autonomal. So in a sense the base structure of a plant is “YX”, but to trigger pistil, stigma and bract formation you need “XX”. You can go back and forth, play with words and phrases. The point is that all plats are evolving towards being dioecious. While still, almost all breeding done by man is forced or not forced monoecious, not just cannabis.
Now you have to remember that males herm just as bad as females which is linked to the same unstable hormonal trait. Males doesn’t stop this from happening at all. So I’m not sure where this discussion is heading 
Pz
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Because it’s more fun with photos ^^
(Obviously) I don’t even tortured this one. Let’s say it’s a xY for the sake of simplicity.
So YY and xY, Xy, actually.
Myself, i believed a long time on the existence of XX, and it don’t pushed me to failures in practice for stabilization.
Then with the sudden evolution and availability of DNA sequencing for cannabis, an horde of documents and experiments changed totally my mind. The possibility to sequence seedlings also, and to sort them by sex as early than the very first node. The problematic is very well exposed in the canadian experiment by the way.
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XX is a thing but IMO there’s a lot of plants/lines with broken ethylene production, hormone problems. Soon as growth rate gets affected, the lack of ethylene shows right up.
I have, and have seen, females that do not herm at all no matter what stress you do to them. CS/STS produce sterile pollen. Seen males be the same way. Never hairs no matter the stress.
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I don’t see breeding with a male that throws hairs as “reinforcing females” or female traits in his progeny.
I see that as passing on a hormone imbalance to all his progeny. A genetic predisposition to have imbalanced hormones, regardless of the gender.
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On the females side, the fems industry learned me that what was impossible with a pure male was possible with what i considered before as a pure female. Then why, and how to deal with a (true) Cheese by example.
Now to be clear on the photos i just shown (because i see popping a tons of dreamy posts about it lastly), it’s how i consider breeding with this kind of specimen (it’s the male shown ^^):
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okay so I don’t want to muddy the waters but where does “rhodelization” fit into this ?
It was my understanding that a few decades ago breeders would seek out plants that while stable for the entire flowering cycle, would pop viable male parts in the lower flowers, often very hard to find. Those breeders would use that pollen to make “feminized” seed.
I have done no research on the topic but it has always been a curiosity of mine and since STS and CS became mainstream for inducing feminized pollen I see very little if no discussion on the rhodelization topic as it pertains to producing feminized or selfed seed.
Am I muddying the waters too much for this conversation?
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I was actually about to ask it. I heard of this from a few sources, some more reliable and some less so. So thanks!
I think that the stuff i have looked into say cannabis is one of the most complex dioecious plants around, or at least this was so in the earlier 20th century and prior.
I have been loving the talk and the respect
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I think rodelization is the same thing as breeding with herms and is why a bunch of lines produce herms.
I believe CS/STS can be different in that they work by blocking ethylene production in the plant, not necessarily stressing the plant to herm. So provided the reversal isn’t enough in itself to cause the plant to herm, the pollen produced should be good and stable and not proliferate herm traits.
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So we would call a plant that expresses those late in flower hidden nanners as a “lesser” hermaphrodite perhaps but still a hermaphrodite.
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